Future Forward

Seyi Fabode (00:02.156)
Hello, hello. Let's do it. Let's do it. Hi, everyone. My name is Shay Fabbodeh and my dear friend here is...

Reza (00:02.548)
All right, bye.

Alright, alright.

Reza (00:12.436)
I'm Reza Shirazi. Hi everyone.

Seyi Fabode (00:16.94)
Cool, cool. We have decided to take a conversation Reza and I have been having for years now and bring you all into our conversation. We're calling the podcast Future Forward and it's centered around cities and the future of cities with a good look at the past, which...

we both believe informs the future. So this is the Future Forward podcast. And our first episode today is the future of the office.

Reza (00:57.076)
Yeah, great. Excited to talk about the Shea. I when I think about the office, I always want to think about like, where did offices come from? Because I don't think like, I mean, it seems like a recent phenomenon if you think of human history. It's unusual in that sense. So maybe let's start there.

Seyi Fabode (01:08.756)
Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (01:17.004)
it let's start there. And the interesting thing is I thought the same until I decided, you know what, where did exactly what you said, where did this all begin? And it turns out that the first purpose built office,

was the old Admiralty Office, which is now known as the Ripley Building in London, which means it still exists and it was built in 1726.

Reza (01:51.774)
Okay, well I'm blown away. I'm already wrong. I like this.

Seyi Fabode (01:54.412)
Yeah. But you and I love being wrong because that means we're going to learn something new. So yeah, so 1726, the first office. And then you get a kick out of this. The sort of the next set of offices were built by the East India Company.

Reza (01:59.668)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So tell me more. I want to know.

Reza (02:20.404)
Hmm, the East India Company? Interesting.

Seyi Fabode (02:22.878)
East India Company, yeah. And further down in the 1700s. But the concept of the office as we know it today really picked up in New York City in the mid 1800s, which is around when the elevator was invented.

Reza (02:34.324)
Mm -hmm.

Reza (02:38.514)
Mm -hmm.

Reza (02:44.692)
Okay.

Reza (02:50.868)
interesting. Yeah, I'm just curious like what were those early offices? What were they?

Seyi Fabode (02:52.236)
because yeah, go for it, go for it.

Seyi Fabode (03:00.94)
Yeah, so those early offices were few rooms, one level in a building, and consequently you couldn't hold too many people in it. The alternative was a factory setting, and it meant you just dumped a bunch of people in a one level place that was extended, and it looked more factory -like than office -like. And so the...

Reza (03:06.994)
Hmm.

Reza (03:11.508)
Okay.

Reza (03:16.724)
Right.

Reza (03:26.13)
Mm -hmm.

Seyi Fabode (03:29.612)
as buildings started adding floors, it was capped because you were going to have people climbing 10 flights of stairs. And there were two problems. The number of stairs and the effort people would have to put to go up and down the building, but also the construction of the buildings you needed. Most buildings were built with outside scaffolds, essentially, that held them up.

Reza (03:35.57)
Mmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Reza (03:57.78)
Hmm. Hmm.

Seyi Fabode (03:59.04)
But for tall buildings, you needed load -bearing steel somewhere in the middle so you could build around it. So deep foundations, load -bearing walls, load -bearing walls, but also load -bearing beams in the middle of the building so it could go as high as.

Reza (04:09.394)
Hmm.

Reza (04:13.894)
Interesting.

Reza (04:18.26)
Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (04:28.044)
however you felt you could. And the Otis building, Elijah Otis, who didn't invent elevators, because apparently Archimedes allegedly built one in like 20, like 2200 years ago in Sicily. I don't know how true that is, but that was one of the things I found out. But Elijah Otis invented the safety lock.

Reza (04:28.756)
and

Reza (04:37.364)
Yeah. Yeah.

Reza (04:48.82)
Wild. Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (04:58.028)
which prevented the elevators from falling. And then people started getting more comfortable with going into buildings with elevators. He demoed it at the World Fair in New York in like 1853.

Reza (04:58.418)
Yeah.

from falling, okay.

Reza (05:06.26)
or...

Reza (05:15.7)
Good. Good.

Seyi Fabode (05:20.172)
And then we get the boom in New York again, no surprises. The boom was in New York.

Reza (05:24.436)
So it's almost like the rise of offices is close to the rise of skyscrapers, no pun intended there. But I would say what I'm curious about is like, why did offices even come about? Like, was there this, because I imagine there was this agrarian, like things were mostly agrarian and then it became manufacturing. Then there's this professional class that comes about that needs offices.

Seyi Fabode (05:34.956)
Absolutely, absolutely.

Seyi Fabode (05:51.18)
Yes. Yes. And that professional class came about, you're totally correct. The professional class came about because businessmen, business owners, and a big part of that class was insurance. It was insurance companies and they needed a bunch of actuaries, a bunch of accountants, all in one space.

Reza (05:53.876)
Okay.

Reza (06:08.796)
Mm -hmm. Mm.

Reza (06:17.332)
Hmm. Hmm.

Seyi Fabode (06:21.364)
handling what we now know as data management and data entry and analysis for, yes, knowledge work. Exactly. And so.

Reza (06:27.06)
Yeah, yeah. Knowledge work, the original knowledge work. They were using their brains, they weren't like manufacturing and using their bodies, right? Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (06:36.908)
They were not. They were not. And so the goal was to, and the first guy who started putting his actuaries and accountants was this guy called William LeBaron Jennings in Chicago. And the claim is that 1885, I was the first true official skyscraper.

Reza (06:54.292)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Reza (07:02.868)
office.

Seyi Fabode (07:04.588)
where you had all these accountants and all these bookkeepers and actuaries in one space in Chicago. But the real boom was in New York City, unsurprisingly, because you had all the Rockefellers, the rich magnates that we now know and speak of. Some of them are still names on some of our banks.

Reza (07:20.476)
Mm -hmm.

Reza (07:28.53)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (07:33.984)
blew up with the buildings that they were building to house the knowledge workers that they were hiring.

Reza (07:34.164)
that took off. Yeah.

Reza (07:40.404)
Yeah, yeah. Interesting. So we seem to have come a long way from there where offices now dominate, right? Agricultural work makes up a tiny portion of things. Manufacturing is a much smaller part of the economy. We have offices everywhere. So, and then, you know, that seemed like we were on a normal mode of going to the office. It seemed like,

Seyi Fabode (07:56.69)
Yep. Yep.

Reza (08:09.716)
drinking water and breathing air, and then the pandemic hits and suddenly everything changes for everyone. Remote work existed, but it wasn't normal.

Seyi Fabode (08:11.308)
Hahaha.

Seyi Fabode (08:18.816)
Was it normal? It wasn't normal. You're correct. And the, the wild thing about the pandemic sort of shifting this staple we knew as office use actually ties back to the same guy I mentioned, the Jennie's guy. He, he ended up with what was about, he went from an insurance guy and a garment guy.

Reza (08:38.868)
Mm -hmm.

Seyi Fabode (08:48.812)
to he was a garment worker initially and then moved up. And then the rise of the office and the fall of the office is actually closely tied to real estate. And that is kind of the crazy connection between the past and today. Because Jenny's went from, I'm.

hiring people to work in this office I built to, I will build offices for other businesses to put their people in. And he became a real estate magnate, decided to, he was worth around $100 million in 19, in the 1920s. But then by 19, 20, 32, 1928, he was worth $100 million. By 1932,

Reza (09:18.964)
Mm -hmm.

Reza (09:24.114)
while

Seyi Fabode (09:44.876)
He died with only $2 because the real estate crash of whenever the depression was happening, the Great Depression, which in a wild way is what we were starting to call the period at the beginning of the pandemic when everything shut down. He...

Reza (09:48.852)
Holy moly. What happened?

Reza (09:57.908)
Yeah, the Great Depression, yeah.

Reza (10:07.668)
Yeah, everything stopped, yeah.

Seyi Fabode (10:11.18)
He saw it coming. Everybody who saw it coming decided to sort of back off a little, but Jennings decided to invest almost all his money in real estate because he believed people will come back into those offices.

Reza (10:26.036)
Wild. That's kind of prescient. Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (10:29.196)
It is, it is. And so to bring it to today, we now find ourselves asking the questions, will people go back to the office? And you and I have had a few conversations like this where you gain so much from collaborating and the work you do. So if you don't mind sharing a little bit more about the work you do and how collaboration and face -to -face time is key, yeah.

Reza (10:38.132)
Yeah. Yeah.

Reza (10:48.756)
to do. Yeah.

Reza (10:52.532)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I'm a product manager and as I often tell other people, you you can't work alone as a product manager. Like your work is with other people. It's the engineers, designers, data analysts, product marketers. And it is like you're creating something, but you're creating something with others. And that creative activity,

is can be hindered by not having those close relationships. Like I often talk about product management being like jazz and you have to figure out how to improvise together and all of that is like body language and knowing each other and seeing a rectangle on Zoom just doesn't quite convey the physical presence of being somewhere. And so whenever I'm in the office with my...

Seyi Fabode (11:32.62)
Mm.

Mmm.

Seyi Fabode (11:46.796)
Hahaha.

Reza (11:53.94)
you know, with my team members, whether we have an onsite right now, I'm working remote. we do have an office in Austin. but occasionally we have onsites, you know, where the team comes in. And I had one recently where, you know, one of the principal engineers, my designer and I came into the office in Austin and spent a day, you know, jamming, I'll use the word jamming, just like we do jazz. and, and, and, and the reason was because we were grappling with.

Seyi Fabode (12:14.028)
Yeah. In jazz.

Reza (12:21.844)
you know, sort of a new capability that we were building. And it was just really difficult for us to thread things together over Zoom. Like I talked to one of them. I talked to Elijah, then I talked to Nico and then Nico would talk to Elijah. Then the three of us would talk together, but we could never quite like be in a space together where we could finish that conversation. And so I was like, okay, we're going to come together. But one day we're going to be in a room and we got so much done together in that room. and so I have this.

Seyi Fabode (12:41.61)
Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (12:46.732)
That's awesome.

Reza (12:51.22)
you know, there's a mixed bag between, you know, wanting to be in the office and having that type of intense connection and collaboration versus, you know, being at home and being able to focus and get some work done. So, yeah.

Seyi Fabode (13:06.934)
Yeah, it's, and so I, in my moments of recognizing the value of what you just shared, I'm 100 % behind spending some days in the office. What I'm struggling with, and this is sort of the tying it back to Jenny's and the hubris, because it really was hubris, there was this huge,

build out of commercial office space that after a few years, we had really way too much and any desire to have people to go into this space, even if your work didn't require it, was purely based on the real estate value and the money that had been spent to build those things.

One quick fun, maybe not so fun fact, five of New York City's 10 tallest buildings were built in the period between 1930 and 1933. Interestingly, the four or five years before the pandemic saw the biggest boom in commercial real estate space being built as well. So why did I mention that?

Reza (14:31.892)
real estate.

Seyi Fabode (14:37.588)
Most of these things are cyclical is really the reality here. And we can't just, we have all these CEOs and company owners who are forcing return to work and talking about how hybrid work is going to be the death of whatever company and remote working from home. When we have examples of companies that have

Reza (14:39.794)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Seyi Fabode (15:07.414)
Never been in person.

Reza (15:09.46)
Yeah

Seyi Fabode (15:11.437)
and they're doing good business. So it almost suggests, and this is sort of what I think you were sharing, for collaborative communal work, maybe we do need to be in the same spaces sometimes.

Reza (15:31.166)
And so you don't think like they're like I'm gonna push back a little like I feel that we're we're human right and we actually want to be social with others and You know, we don't live in communities where we have enough interaction and A lot of interaction at least my experience of you know, I

Seyi Fabode (15:36.396)
Please.

Reza (15:58.452)
living in the US versus growing up in India is like, growing up there, the office wasn't the important place. It was like all these other spaces that allowed you to commune with others. And I don't feel like we have that as much in the US. And so the office became a more important place or feels like a more important place. And then we retreat to the home and we're not connected with the community to where the office is the only outlet for your social connection. And so,

Seyi Fabode (16:07.852)
Yes. Yes.

Reza (16:28.5)
While I agree with you that, you know, some businesses with this push to return to work, maybe is not the best thing. I agree with you on that, but I disagree that we shouldn't have it. Like we should have some form of connection. And it seems in the U .S. that form of connection happens in the office. We don't, I mean, we should really fix the problem of being closer in our communities. I don't know how to fix that problem.

Seyi Fabode (16:55.116)
And I think that's totally the key because what we've conflated, I think, is the office and community. And for some of us, so I moved to the US in 2008. And for most of my time in the US,

Reza (17:03.38)
Yeah. Yeah.

Reza (17:08.596)
there you go, yes.

Reza (17:16.882)
Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (17:22.604)
I haven't actually worked in the same space as the people I've worked with in whatever capacity I've worked. But you and I met in a third space where sometimes we would work and then catch up and then go back to wherever we... So I do think the message of,

Reza (17:34.932)
Yeah. Yes.

Reza (17:44.724)
Yes.

Seyi Fabode (17:52.382)
work cannot be done or work cannot be done well and we don't have the community and the loneliness epidemic we have in our cities. Work was never going to solve that.

Reza (17:54.964)
Mm. Mm.

Reza (18:11.028)
Mmm, yeah.

Seyi Fabode (18:12.46)
the and you hit on you hit it on the head. The real problem isn't the spaces that we go to. It's the bonds we build. And we're not building those bonds, but but you I'm an optimistic realist. I found a company that is building exactly that. And the company is in.

Reza (18:24.404)
Yeah. Yeah.

Reza (18:37.844)
Tell me more.

Seyi Fabode (18:41.932)
the Charlotte area. And the name is, well, before I get to the name of the company, what this guy, his name is Tesho Akindele, who used to be a soccer player for the Orlando team's Canadian, but played soccer for the Orlando team. And you and I always joke about soccer being life. So it was such a delight when I found Tesho Akindele's

Reza (18:45.972)
Mm -hmm.

Reza (19:05.428)
Yeah, yes, yeah.

Seyi Fabode (19:11.98)
business, which is this mixed communal work office idea. And I'll share an image. But yes, he's built what is really a few acres. he's building. He's building. He's still working on it. A few acres of hybrid home. And essentially, you.

Reza (19:20.66)
Mm.

Reza (19:32.628)
Mm -hmm.

Seyi Fabode (19:40.748)
sleep in your room in one part of this warehouse turned facility, you wake up.

Reza (19:44.508)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Seyi Fabode (19:50.7)
bathed, whatever it is you do. And you can come out to some of these shared spaces where you can then eat a freshly cooked meal by a business from the community if you choose not to cook yourself. And then essentially, another part of the space is shared workspaces and offices. So it's a more...

Reza (20:00.82)
Alright.

All right. All right. All right.

Seyi Fabode (20:20.126)
community -oriented idea that blends these two problems that you and I are talking about. And.

Reza (20:27.092)
Mm -hmm.

Seyi Fabode (20:31.116)
The idea that that is possible, we can adapt the spaces we have, is where I think the real estate owners and the business owners who are trying to force everyone back to the office, I think that's where they should spend their energy, honestly.

Reza (20:39.476)
Yeah.

Reza (20:49.076)
So, so are you saying like we have to find a way of adapting like there's this new normal We need to find a way of adapting This could be one possibility one possible way of adapting I'm not convinced I it leaves me yeah, it leaves me a little empty because you know, I still I still long for

Seyi Fabode (21:04.702)
Yes.

Say more, say more.

Say more.

Reza (21:20.326)
spaces that are not created to sort of artificially form community, but are organically forming community. Like, I don't know, churches, clubs, I don't know, places where, you know, where you feel belonging, because it's, there's something more to that space than yourself and the people there.

Seyi Fabode (21:31.756)
Mmm.

Seyi Fabode (21:42.43)
Yes.

Reza (21:49.012)
Like there's an identity. Like I feel that when I go to an Austin FC game, you and I have been to an Austin FC games and you enter that stadium and you feel like you belong immediately. And you feel like I am part of this community. These people are here because they love this team. They love the city. and I don't know if that you can replicate that by sort of, you know, I, you know, I, I, I think it's great that he's trying that. I don't, I'm curious to see.

Seyi Fabode (21:54.06)
Yes, yes.

Seyi Fabode (22:05.964)
Yes.

Seyi Fabode (22:18.156)
You

Reza (22:18.58)
if it can organically create that sense of belonging that you have in these other places. Does that make sense?

Seyi Fabode (22:22.422)
become.

Seyi Fabode (22:27.916)
Yeah, it does. It makes a ton of sense. So Camp North End is the name of the, it's called Camp North End. And I think the choice of name is intentional. And I'll touch on. He calls it a camp because there is a recognition, my take, there is a recognition that this is about bringing,

Reza (22:36.085)
Okay.

Reza (22:43.988)
Hmm.

Seyi Fabode (22:57.036)
people.

inorganically into organic experience, experiences, shared organic experiences. So some people will hear Camp North End, see the, listen to this idea of, you can get food from local food places. There's a farmer's market that is within walking distance and say, I would never do that. Why would I do that? But I think,

Reza (23:05.524)
Mm. Mm.

Reza (23:22.388)
Yeah. Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (23:29.324)
the people who would hear that will come from all walks of life, all different backgrounds, but will share exactly what you just said, Reza, this desire to belong. And if it works for them, it will, and they'll probably stay. And this will expand, because a married couple with three kids can't be in a shared space like that.

Reza (23:44.66)
Hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (23:59.564)
they still want to belong in their neighborhood, but there will be modifications that are more organic, I think, attached to this slightly inorganic beginnings of what I think is really about building better neighborhoods, you know? So I'm optimistic about the idea. I like that he used to be a soccer player because he's definitely thinking strategically about this as you do as a soccer player.

Reza (24:02.226)
Hmm.

Reza (24:14.42)
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

Reza (24:25.844)
Yes, yes, yeah.

Seyi Fabode (24:28.012)
and he was a pretty good one too. He was a striker. Yeah.

Reza (24:31.348)
Okay, so he knows how to move into the right spaces. So maybe this is a space. So Shay, here's the thing. You're amazing at this, like, know, future sherpa, thinking of the future. This is a great example. So I'm curious, where do you see this? Where do you see offices going? What do you see on the horizon?

Seyi Fabode (24:35.084)
Exactly. He knows how to...

Seyi Fabode (24:52.171)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, so I'll caveat this by saying in most conversations I have about Houston, I don't really talk about Houston in the most glowing light. Interestingly though, interestingly though, one of the things Houston failed to do, I don't think it was intentional, one of the things they failed to do was zone the cities and consequently,

Reza (25:12.338)
Hmm.

Reza (25:20.948)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Seyi Fabode (25:24.14)
You go to downtown Houston and you see everything. You see everything everywhere, apartments, offices. And interestingly, this unzoned approach to downtowns is what Jane Goodall was preaching. It's what she was preaching such that you had everything you needed within.

Reza (25:27.796)
Yes, everything everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Reza (25:40.788)
Mmm.

Reza (25:46.577)
Mmm.

Interesting.

Every day. Yeah. Yeah. Within that neighborhood. Yeah. 15 minutes or whatever. Yeah. Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (25:54.348)
within that neighborhood and consequently 15 minutes or so. And even if you lived in high rises, she didn't like high rises, but the office spaces that are high rises or skyscrapers now, there needs to be some conversion. This is where I see the future going. Less zoning in downtowns or...

Reza (26:15.284)
Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (26:22.444)
a change of some of the zoning laws in downtowns that are office space dense to convert them into mixed use. And we will live, eat, hang out, engage with our neighbors, all within these downtown areas that used to be purely office spaces, but are dying now. I really think so. I was talking to a...

Reza (26:28.564)
Yeah.

Reza (26:41.778)
Yeah.

Reza (26:47.22)
Right.

Seyi Fabode (26:51.308)
a friend and I asked him, I was like, what would you, he just had a baby. I was like, what do you want? He lives downtown in, in one, it's sorry. It leaves outside of downtown, but works downtown, in one of the major cities in, in the U S his wife works, he works and they have this, lovely little seven month old girl. And he goes, and I was sort of telling him what I think he goes,

Reza (26:59.508)
Okay.

Seyi Fabode (27:20.684)
Dude, if someone, and I'm not saying this just for myself, this was him, if someone could build or convert some of these downtown skyscrapers that are currently offices and no one is coming into them, into spaces where my wife and I live on like the 20th floor, we drop our kid at the daycare that is on the first floor. We walk five minutes to our offices that are...

in opposite distances, then we come to our building for lunch at the restaurant on the fourth floor with our daughter. We drop her back at the daycare. We go back to the office, walk back home and have dinner or watch movies on the eighth floor movie theater together. I will pay whatever amount they will ask me for, because I don't want to own a home in the suburbs.

Reza (27:55.796)
Thank you.

Reza (28:01.012)
and bake.

Reza (28:11.7)
Yeah.

Reza (28:18.516)
Yeah. Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (28:20.268)
I don't like driving. And we've talked about the fact most of the next generation aren't getting their driver's licenses, but they still want to live vibrant lives. So long way of saying, I do think adaptive reuse of the centers of our cities to enable the shared community belonging and just fulfillment that we all desire is going to be the way.

Reza (28:22.28)
Yeah.

Reza (28:28.052)
Yeah.

Reza (28:48.916)
Yeah, you know, like if we sort of circle back to where we started, where, you know, these offices were created for a purpose of, you know, concentrating work into an area. And then they just sort of mushroomed into becoming a way of solving a problem. But we forgot like how we want to

retain our humanity and be close to others and not this weird way of living where downtowns are offices and suburbs are where we live. And so his wish, yeah, I'm curious, like, you know, I'm sure we'll talk about this again, Shay, but I, you know, his wish is probably a wish that others have. And I wonder, like, you know, I'm certain like, you know, we will,

Seyi Fabode (29:20.798)
Yes.

Seyi Fabode (29:26.508)
You

Seyi Fabode (29:36.012)
Yes.

Seyi Fabode (29:40.684)
Yeah, I truly.

Reza (29:48.468)
probably talk about this in a future episode, but being in that area of walking around and bumping to others and all the serendipity of being connected to others as opposed to sitting in cars and not. How will our communities thrive even more? Would that happen? Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (30:02.508)
Yeah, yeah.

Seyi Fabode (30:10.956)
when that happens, I know the thread for you is always community. And as long as I've known you, that desire for not just for yourself, but for our cities has been like core to your work, to your engagement, to your community building. And I genuinely believe there are more people that are starting to.

Reza (30:28.436)
Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (30:40.844)
want the same thing, especially after the pandemic and what it showed us about how separated and lonely we are. Yeah, how disconnected we are. Yes, yes, yes. And the beauty of that time for me, if we can find any beauty is you and I would constantly engage and...

Reza (30:46.42)
Yes, yes, yes, how disconnected and how difficult that was. How difficult that was.

Reza (31:05.14)
Yeah. Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (31:09.546)
What a beautiful world or what beautiful cities we would have if that experience of us making sure we set aside time to connect outside a coffee shop is one everybody can have because they're not having to drive miles away to go go to work somewhere. I truly believe that's the future of our cities.

Reza (31:23.316)
Yes.

Reza (31:31.953)
Yeah.

Reza (31:35.284)
Yeah, yeah, I love it. Shae's been great. This is so good talking about this. I feel like we have so many more topics to explore. I can't wait to do it. I can't wait for all the good conversations we have. I'd love to hear from our listeners about what they want to hear from us, questions that they have for us. We'll find a way of...

Seyi Fabode (31:38.156)
Awesome.

Seyi Fabode (31:44.818)
Absolutely.

Seyi Fabode (31:56.396)
Yes. Yes.

Reza (32:00.948)
having all of you engage with us and share your ideas. We clearly don't know everything. We have some opinions. We can't wait to learn more, not just from each other, but from all of you that are listening. So yeah, I'm excited we've started this, Shae, and I can't wait for us to do more.

Seyi Fabode (32:07.148)
Absolutely not. Yes.

Seyi Fabode (32:20.844)
Same. This is awesome Reza, thank you.

Reza (32:24.34)
Thanks. Thanks everyone.