Future Forward

Seyi Fabode (00:02.2)
Hello, hello, hello. Hi Reza, how are

Reza (00:04.654)
Good Seyi, how are you doing?

Seyi Fabode (00:06.382)
I am doing well today. I'm doing well today. It is episode 12 of Future Forward.

Reza (00:11.778)
Yeah, I'm excited about this one today as I'm excited every week. So tell us what we're talking about today, Seyi.

Seyi Fabode (00:16.014)
Yes, today we will be talking about the future of disasters in cities is really the topic today. But before we dive into it Reza, will you tell our audience old and new what this

Reza (00:33.474)
Yeah. So Future Forward is a conversation that Seyi and I have been having for years. We are bringing you into this conversation and it's really about cities. We talk about the past, the present and the future of sustainable cities and thriving communities. And we select topics that we dive into to explore how we can think about

strategic foresight on where cities can go with these particular topics. We always say that we're not the experts. And so we want you as our listeners to engage and tell us things that we don't know and share ideas that we haven't heard about yet. And I'm excited about this one today. So, Seyi, there was something that triggered you deciding that this would be a good topic for today.

Seyi Fabode (01:27.032)
But today, yeah, really came about, the episode today came about because of the fires in California. I was chatting with a friend and he mentioned he's in Colorado, but they're struggling with some of the fires, the smoke, and shared a little bit of data about how bad the fires are. And I thought, huh.

We've seen this before. I've written articles about fires in California and the resilience we need to build. And so I thought, let us dive into it today. So that's where it came from.

Reza (02:05.028)
Yeah, that's great. So you had a really good example to get this started, which I think you were gonna talk about Katrina in New Orleans as a really eye -opening historical disaster that really wasn't handled well. I mean, that's an understatement.

Seyi Fabode (02:30.006)
Yeah, it's an understatement, but we've always taken a clear -eyed view about these disasters and situations. before I dive into the story of, we're going to be sharing a particular story from the Katrina disaster. But before I dive into that, one of the big overarching themes that has come up in our conversations on Future Forward

is around the fact that a lot of the environmental movements and the laws and the policy changes that we've seen in the US have come after disasters. Environmental disasters, natural or manmade disasters like oil spills, they lead to something. so even as we discuss

the future of disasters in cities, the hope and the idea for us diving into this is that we can start to think about it from that. What will have to change post this California fire disaster? And you shared some really good ideas about what will change. But before we get there, I can share about the Katrina story here.

Reza (03:56.132)
Yeah, yeah. So I think the interesting point that we're going to explore is that sometimes disasters are a failure of imagination or a failure of action. And maybe that's something to listen to as we talk through this episode.

Seyi Fabode (04:18.484)
Yeah, absolutely. So the Katrina story, we won't go into the details of Katrina. It was an emergency disaster situation that wasn't handled well by US authorities. But as I was mentioning to you before we jumped to recording, the first book I read on my Kindle, which tells you when I read it, was this book called Zeitoun was written by.

Dave Eggers, and it's a non -fiction narrative that chronicles the experience of Abdulrahman Zaitoun, who was a Syrian -American businessman who lived in New Orleans.

before Katrina. He moved away, obviously, after Katrina, but successful, had a contracting business, and his wife, Kathy Zeitoun together they had four kids. once they knew, like many other people in New Orleans, once they knew the hurricane, Katrina was on the way, Abdulraman Zeitoun

instructed, agreed with his wife that she would move herself and their four kids to Baton Rouge. And he would stay behind to protect their property, finish boarding it up and try to ensure that they could recover post the hurricane, essentially. Well, he stays, his wife and kids go. And as things start to ease up, he takes his

canoe and decides to go see what is going on in the neighborhood. The floods had risen up his, I believe it got to the roof of their home. So he literally just had to put the canoe on the on the roof and just move into the neighborhood to try and see what was going on. As he was doing this.

Seyi Fabode (06:33.606)
he found purpose is the way he framed it in the book. There were neighbors who were stranded and Abdulmanza Itoom became what the government wasn't at that point. He was rescuing his neighbors, rescuing their pets, getting them to places of safety

Reza (06:54.778)
Okay.

Seyi Fabode (06:57.704)
reminding his community that they are a community despite the disaster. I'll fast forward here because sadly, found a few people positively, found a few people to help him with the rescue and recovery. But then once the National Guard came in, they saw them as looters, arrested Abdulrahman and the other people.

Reza (07:03.652)
Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (07:25.752)
took them to maximum security prisons in, I believe, other parts of Louisiana and initially in a Greyhound bus, if I remember correctly, and then into a maximum security prison. So he lost communication with his family, who were in Baton Rouge and worried because a hurricane had just

The beauty of this story, I'll say, apart from the fact that he'd become and reminded every one of the community that existed post -Katrina in their neighborhood, his wife and the neighbors he'd helped then rallied because they didn't hear from him, knew something was wrong, but figured out a way and got him out of the security, out of the prison he was in.

Seyi Fabode (08:23.786)
In spite of everything that had gone wrong and made this disaster even worse for Abdulrahman Zaitoun and his family, they still found a way to both help the community and then the community came back to help him. His wife was the main force behind making sure he recovered. She showed the resilience that communities

that survive disasters have to show. And highlighted a lot of the injustice that happened during Katrina and other topic that seems to show up a lot in disaster situations in the US in cities. And it's just a powerful narrative of the human impact you can have on your community and what you can get back despite the systemic failures

of the larger governmental entities there. So I'll stop there. But it was the first thing that came to my mind when we decided, you know what, let's talk about this episode, this topic on this episode.

Reza (09:32.462)
Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I love that story. love the taking it down to an individual. Sometimes we see disasters as this, you know, big thing and they're faceless, but you just gave face to the disaster and you gave an example of how even, you know, our perception of Katrina is so negative. Here's this beautiful story that illustrates why we as humans

Seyi Fabode (09:46.882)
Yeah.

Reza (10:02.586)
can be good to one another in the face of disaster. And it makes me think about it. This probably takes us back to when humans first started evolving. I we were out in the wild with threats constantly around us. And the only way that we survived well was by working together. We could never do it as individuals. And I'm sure that, know,

Seyi Fabode (10:05.57)
Yes. Yes.

Seyi Fabode (10:24.46)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Reza (10:30.148)
people that were kind and helped one another were valued in that community. And we seem to have forgotten that as humans, you know, I think this is the one challenge of cities that we'll explore as we go through this episode is it depersonalizes that connection that you have with your community, your neighbors. A city feels faceless sometimes, disasters feel faceless sometimes. So I love that you brought it down to an individual because this is what

is probably the most meaningful way that we could have an impact with disasters.

Seyi Fabode (11:05.388)
Yeah, yeah, thank you. It was this conversation because every, and as you can imagine, we do some research before we jump on these podcasts. As I would research the disasters that have happened and in some cases led to regulations or policy, there were no stories. It was kind of spark to me that there were no stories. And then I remembered,

Abdu -Roman Zaitoun and just the resilience in community that has kept us for this long that we, I agree, we're losing in our cities now.

Reza (11:40.058)
Yes. Yes.

Reza (11:48.41)
Yeah, yeah. So bring us into, know, that's a good historical example. Bring us into today, I think you mentioned that that California fire disaster was the, know, news item or the event that sparked this episode.

Seyi Fabode (12:06.944)
Yeah, yeah. So we're recording on the 4th of August. And as at yesterday, there been a total of four thousand seven hundred and I think about sixty seven or so wildfires which have burned a cumulative seven hundred and seventy seven thousand one hundred and twenty eight acres of land, which

is astonishingly horrible. And yet to date, the number of wildfires and the number of acres burned are much higher than the five -year average, with about just over 900 structures destroyed and one person killed, which is one life too many.

Reza (13:02.522)
Yeah, gosh, yeah. That's, it's tragic. It's

Seyi Fabode (13:04.056)
period.

Reza (13:15.766)
It's almost, you know, we have these wildfires constantly and it's almost like we're becoming numb to it, which I think is

Seyi Fabode (13:22.572)
Yes. Yes, we are. it's you dive into the laws shortly, but I believe the human condition of once you experience something so much, even as it creeps up in intensity, you don't realize it because you're now numb to it, even as it worsens.

and intensity and that's what we're seeing with these wildfires. Every new one is the worst

Reza (14:02.776)
Yeah, yeah. And even though it's worse, our sense of crisis and action diminishes because it's just another one. It hasn't affected me.

Seyi Fabode (14:13.312)
Yes, it's just another one. Yeah, yeah, which, cannot be. And it is without tooting our own horn, it actually ties to a few of the laws we've, we've shared. And if you want to dive into the two here,

Reza (14:31.374)
Yeah. So, yeah, so there two of our laws apply to this. The first one is climate resilience is an urban imperative. And what we write here is cities must adapt to climate change impacts while simultaneously working to mitigate their contributions to global warming. And this is based on research by Rosenzweig that, you know, that highlights the crucial role cities play in climate change adaptation and mitigation.

What we know is that as an individual, your contribution to climate change is not as much, but it's all these other systems, large infrastructure systems, the energy systems, the water and wastewater systems, all the transportation systems that are creating, exacerbating the climate change crisis. And cities play a crucial role because of all its

because the amount of density and the amount of infrastructure systems that we have that contribute to climate change. And so it becomes increasingly important for cities to do something to mitigate, to mitigate as well as adapt. Because the impact of climate change on cities is even more magnified because of that density and because of all those critical infrastructure systems that are often quite centralized and have,

Seyi Fabode (15:56.514)
Yes.

Reza (15:59.374)
very detrimental impact in ways that cannot be, you you can't bounce back from it quickly. Like when we saw the Texas snowmageddon or the, you know, snowpocalypse, whatever we call it, you know, two years ago, where it was really difficult to recover because systems on a large scale, like the water system or the wastewater system

Seyi Fabode (16:12.354)
Yes, yes.

Reza (16:24.098)
went offline or couldn't recover or the centralized power plants couldn't recover from it. And it exacerbated this crisis for a very large population that couldn't quickly recover. So I think it's critical for cities to pay attention and be a part of helping solve this.

Seyi Fabode (16:46.806)
Absolutely. And then the second law, which is one that the Zeitung story sort of points out a little bit, and we know was the narrative that came out of Katrina period. The second law that applies here is that social equity underpins urban sustainability.

And the framing here is that equitable access to resources, opportunities, and services, especially during disasters, across all neighborhoods and demographics is fundamental to creating sustainable and inclusive cities. And this comes from research done by Dempsey and a few other researchers here in 2011 that identified social equity as a key dimension of urban social sustainability.

We mentioned this during one of our previous episodes, this law. And the same thing applies in disaster situations, because the consequence of neglecting this law is that it increases the negative impact of disasters on the communities that were underserved in the first place. And I believe.

We will on the back end when we hear stories of the California fires. My hope and desire is that it's not just the same playbook where the underserved are the ones that suffer the most in these times

Reza (18:31.002)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, this is an interesting follow -up to our episode last week about social equity and this is, know, social equity after disaster is just as important as social equity and how you build out infrastructure and how you build your cities. So I think a really important one. If you don't address those underserved communities after a crisis, you know, you leave them further behind probably, or you leave them, you continue to leave them behind, you

Seyi Fabode (18:57.666)
Yeah, yeah. You just continue to leave them behind. It's a quite, again, the stock conditions post disaster, post emergency, just exacerbate whatever it is that was there before. We saw that during the pandemic, the communities that were struggling before the pandemic struggled even

Reza (19:19.406)
Yeah.

Reza (19:26.19)
Yes. Yes.

Seyi Fabode (19:27.118)
and are still feeling some of those impacts now. So as much as we can start to engage the community, and I think we can move to the positive examples we have here of where things have happened. And I'll point to Paradise, Colorado. We have two examples, sorry, Paradise, California, where the campfire, which was in 2018,

Reza (19:39.428)
Yes.

Seyi Fabode (19:55.628)
which was at the point the worst fire disaster we'd seen up until that point. Again, this story plays out again. But the community, the leadership established a, they did three things that made the disaster less catastrophic for their communities than it ended up being for some

the other examples we have shared and that you all listeners might know of. The city established a building resiliency center, which was a single location for owners of property to get assistance with rebuilding, which again, a space, a location for people to come, essentially gather beyond just.

getting support, it became a center of meeting their needs for resilience building, for recovery, but also just to be with other people is what I found as I was reading about this online. A huge thing they did that adapts or addresses the second law we just shared was that low to moderate income residents who didn't own homes because

That first example was for people who owned homes and needed to rebuild. The second thing the city did was engage low to moderate income residents to relocate, rebuild or navigate the options they had for support from the city for renters.

They provided for those who had and also created options for those who didn't have, including national and state funding that did not just go to homeowners.

Reza (22:03.662)
Yeah. I think that's a really great example. love that you've picked a positive example of finding a way to recover from a disaster, from a wildfire, and that there was a focus on recovery, community, as well as the undeserved part of that town.

past week I've been reading Deb Chachra's book that we've mentioned, you know, how infrastructure works and in it, you know, I love this book and, you know, we're going to have her on the show very soon. She talks about civic agency and I love that phrase because this is how do you give everyone in a civic body agency to participate? And what Paradise California did is they created a space where

Seyi Fabode (22:40.418)
Have your cuppy. Yes.

Reza (23:02.638)
participation could occur and everyone in that town had agency after the disaster.

Seyi Fabode (23:09.838)
Yes, absolutely. And Pacific Agency, I'll tie it to the second example too. It's a fantastic example because, a fantastic phrase because the second example, Lyons, Colorado, this was floods that happened, small town population of just over 2000 in Colorado recovering from flood. There was a church, Paradise Alliance Church, I believe it was called.

which started this community dinner initiative, which was gatherings of people from different communities to foster a sense of unity post -flood, to reunite people because some people had had to relocate because of the flood. So having these dinners, these community dinners at Paradise Alliance Church could allow

neighbors who'd moved away to come back and engage with their old neighbors and start to build resilience again. And the plan was for these community dinners to last six months, but it ended up and it's been going on for three years now, apparently. Well, it went on for three years after the disaster. And it was this shared purpose that then helped

each member of the community to sort of regain and they were the dinners would involve people learning how to apply for grants, apply for whatever it was to aid their recovery back to your civic agency point.

Reza (24:55.428)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a fantastic example as well. Like again, creating a space, people come together. You can imagine how traumatic it is after disasters. Like what am I going to, what do I do? Like, you know, you're just trying to survive and there's all this bureaucratic stuff that needs to happen, which might be extremely difficult for some people to tackle given their state or access and having others

Seyi Fabode (25:14.541)
Yes.

Seyi Fabode (25:18.498)
Yes, access.

Reza (25:25.624)
that you're sharing this burden with to help you and help everyone move forward together. I mean, what a great idea, break bread together. I mean, it's amazing. They thought they were gonna do this for six months, but it went on for three years, which tells you a lot about how much time it takes to fully recover from a disaster like that. It's not over. Like it will be out of the news in a week, a few weeks.

Seyi Fabode (25:33.474)
Yes.

Seyi Fabode (25:41.934)
Three years.

Seyi Fabode (25:47.522)
Yes.

Seyi Fabode (25:54.136)
in a week.

Reza (25:55.066)
But that community has to live with that disaster for years. The rebuilding doesn't, you those cities, those communities, those towns took years to build, were destroyed in, and it will take many years for them to recover. So that's a very good example of how it can be done positively. I love those two.

Seyi Fabode (25:58.22)
Yes.

Seyi Fabode (26:19.98)
Yeah. And you're touching on a big thing, which actually ties to another one of our laws that we didn't mention here, the idea that social infrastructure is almost as important as physical infrastructure. And you, in the recovery post disaster, in both examples, in all three examples, honestly, the thing that happens, the thing that

Reza (26:33.401)
Yes.

Seyi Fabode (26:48.75)
point to as not happening is that, we're not rebuilding the physical infrastructure. And we forget the social infrastructure that is as critical to rebuild.

Reza (27:00.194)
That's an amazing point, Seyi I think it's spot on. know, again, Deb Chachar's book, she talks about the word infrastructure and infra means underneath or hidden. And so it's these, these structures that we just believe exist, but you they work, you turn on the lights, the lights come on and it's invisible how that happens, but they're really critical. But we can imagine that physical infrastructure

Seyi Fabode (27:11.938)
Yeah. Yes.

Reza (27:31.374)
has systems and physics, the laws of physics, but social infrastructure is even more hidden and invisible and so easily forgotten and so hard to create or build or rebuild. I think we need to do an episode on social infrastructure. This is, I think, yeah.

Seyi Fabode (27:40.077)
Yes.

Seyi Fabode (27:44.684)
Yes.

Seyi Fabode (27:49.73)
We should. I agree. I agree. The more we touch on topics that don't have much to do with the scene, I agree. We absolutely have to because and now we'll move to sort of what the future should look like for disaster recovery in cities. This actually touches on the first point you mentioned before we started recording.

Reza (28:00.226)
Yes.

Seyi Fabode (28:18.872)
which is about how the lessons we should take to building resilience and recovery in the future when cities experience disasters.

Reza (28:33.284)
Yeah, yeah, you know, what I noticed with the two examples of Paradise, California, and Lions, Colorado is small towns, tight communities, a very local way of recovering. And, you know, what happens with cities, again, we mentioned how cities can be depersonalizing. We forget that we're neighbors. We forget that we're communities. Cities almost...

make you feel anonymous. that's one benefit of being in a city, but it's also a downside of being in a city is that when a disaster occurs, seems like this, a faceless thing. And your example of Zeytun was a way of personalizing that recovery. And what seems to happen with disasters is disaster recovery is seen as a centralized initiative.

Seyi Fabode (29:09.496)
Yes.

Seyi Fabode (29:31.619)
Mm.

Reza (29:31.758)
when in cities probably should replicate what these towns are successful at doing by creating more localized places or communities for recovery, creating pods where that recovery can happen on a more local level so that a community can help one another recover as opposed to wait for some central authority to come in and help

Seyi Fabode (29:57.038)
Yes, I 100 % agree. for anyone who knows about systems, the resilience is built or resilience is improved when you have more points of failure such that when one node in the system fails, the others can continue to function.

while the approach we've taken with disaster recoveries that you're pointing out is not working and won't work for the future, is this centralized single point of failure such that when it fails, the impact is a cascading one across the whole system. And I 100 % agree, it has to be that. And again, for our listeners, we're not bashing

government that addresses these issues. will need in the future, this is one of the things we've highlighted, in the future of disaster recovery, we will need improved decision making using data and technology by the centralized authorities or the entities in the cities. We're just suggesting that there is a big part of resilience or recovery.

that is tied to enhancing the community fabric that will be on the ground addressing the disasters as it happens and after it happens.

Reza (31:35.886)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good. What else, Seyi? What else should we be thinking about the future? What are the points?

Seyi Fabode (31:44.654)
Yeah, I think we'll touch on two quickly. And one is just the most of you, listeners, will know of the 911 service, which is the Emergency Communication System. What we will have to add to that is just include, and right now you can text 911, but just

multi -modal forms of communication that exists now, texts, video, images, as much as we can incorporate that into the communication system, the emergency communication system, because right now you can text or call, and then you have to describe what is happening for the most part. Why don't you just, we all have our phones, it can be asynchronous, you can take the video,

Reza (32:13.892)
Yeah.

Reza (32:30.094)
Yeah.

Reza (32:34.638)
Yes.

Seyi Fabode (32:39.55)
send it to that number. And in the aggregation of these emergency calls in the emergency situation, the centralized government body that is in charge can make better decisions about how to help the communities post the emergency. And we don't have that yet. So I believe that will increase the likelihood of things getting addressed with a bit more efficiency in the future.

And then the last one, we always come back to this, the regulatory frameworks that exist. We have to embed equity in the policies for disaster recovery, which is the point you were making about just the pods of recovery. As much as we can enable our recovery and emergency management systems to help the underserved so that no one is left behind.

it will have to improve. And I'm sure you have a comment about that for sure.

Reza (33:43.406)
Yeah, I think that's really critical. think this is the part that is often forgotten in disaster recovery is that it's a lot easier for communities that are served well to recover because they have a lot more resources. But a disaster will have a much higher impact on an underserved community because they just don't have as many resources to recover.

they can be forgotten, they can be left behind. you know, having an eye on ensuring that that is paid attention to so that a recovery can, you know, make them bounce back to a better place. And, you know, we know that social equity is good for cities and so we can use that as a, you know, that disaster as an opportunity

Seyi Fabode (34:29.9)
Yes.

Reza (34:40.42)
put that community in a better place and the city therefore in a better place. Yeah. And yeah, I just, the last point that I mentioned at the start, like disasters are a failure of imagination or a failure of action and preparation. And it's really difficult. Disasters will happen. Infrastructure will fail. And there are sort of thoughts and plans about what can be done in a disaster.

Seyi Fabode (34:45.772)
That is a perfect way to, yeah, please go.

Seyi Fabode (34:55.139)
Yes.

Reza (35:10.142)
And I hope that each of you as individuals think about your role in disaster recovery, but your role in your community in helping your community recover and asking your local politicians or your local, whoever helps govern your area to be thoughtful about how to bring a community together for disaster recovery.

Seyi Fabode (35:22.082)
Yes. Yes.

Seyi Fabode (35:38.082)
Yeah, no, it's a really good point. And I don't have the research reference at hand, but read something that suggested that communities that are sort of bonded, that have a community bond, are the most resilient in times of disaster.

Reza (36:02.148)
Hmm. That's great. Perfect. Perfect closer.

Seyi Fabode (36:03.864)
Period. Yeah. Exactly. So we've come to the end of the episode, but we have a couple of mail bags, believe, Reza. Yeah. Please go.

Reza (36:12.782)
Yeah.

Yeah, so my mailbag is from my friend Mark. We were out as we always are on Sunday morning on our bike ride and he listened to the Parks and Public Places episode. And if you remember, I mentioned Mark on that episode and he really enjoyed it. He said that, you know, it was very balanced. We did a good job of representing what's happening in parks today. And I took that as a compliment because he's an expert on it, because he's actually deeply involved.

Seyi Fabode (36:29.582)
Yes.

Seyi Fabode (36:40.355)
Yes.

Reza (36:43.026)
in, parks, in fact, he, he mentioned this morning that he's meeting, meeting with the city auditor next week to talk about one of those parks, that are not doing the city right. And so, you know, he's, he still is doing the good work and I appreciate him for it. What about you, Seyi?

Seyi Fabode (36:55.054)
That's great.

Seyi Fabode (37:00.354)
That's fantastic. Yes, I have a short mailbag as well from my dear friend Marcelo Lando went to business school together. He's built his career in the energy space and he listened to the podcasts as well and commented on the regulations episode where he wonders if we can regulate the emission of CO2.

Better than we currently do is maybe the best way to approach it, to think about it. And I will be having further conversations with Marcelo about this, because I do think there's a gem of an idea that we can pull a thread on in some future episode.

Reza (37:32.826)
Hmm.

Reza (37:47.598)
Yeah.

Yeah, thanks

Seyi Fabode (37:54.264)
Thank you. And so that's the end of the episode. We thank you for listening. As always, share with someone you think will enjoy it. Reach out anything we've said that sparks an idea or anything you think we might need some correction on as we've shared. Please continue to support, like, share, and be kind to one another, I think is

piece of advice that popped into my head right now and I thought to share.

Reza (38:26.308)
Yeah, I love that way to close the episode. Thank you everyone. Thank you Seyi. We'll see you in a week.

Seyi Fabode (38:33.986)
Bye.

Reza (38:35.236)
Bye.