Future Forward

Seyi (00:02.154)
Hello, hello, hello Reza, how are you? I am doing great, I'm doing great. We are back for another episode of Future Forward. How do you feel about the episode today?

Reza (00:04.264)
Good Shae, how are you doing?

Reza (00:13.706)
Yeah, today is going to be a pretty exciting one. It actually comes out of a mailbag from my friend Carolyn, where she was talking about third spaces. But as we explored third spaces, we realized that sports and sports stadiums are a form of third space. And we decided, well, we should talk about the future of cities and sports and explore that. Like sports has a big part to play. So I'm excited about this one.

Seyi (00:17.472)
you

Seyi (00:36.85)
I am too, and you know, we're both big sports fans as well, soccer being the main sport that unites us. And before we dive in, welcome to our old listeners and new listeners, to our old listeners, thanks for jumping on board Future Forward again. And to our new listeners, welcome. Future Forward is an exploration of cities through...

Reza (00:42.061)
Yes.

Seyi (01:05.46)
the history of cities, we dive into what happened before under certain topics in cities. We talk about where we are under that specific topic with, again, the framing of the history. And then we provide strategic foresight about what the future of that specific topic will be towards the development of sustainable cities and thriving communities. And as Reza just mentioned,

This week's episode is the future of sports in cities. So let's dive in.

Reza (01:39.82)
Yeah, you know, just to sort of lay the foundation, cities and sports have been evolving, you know, ever since civilizations and cities began. They've shaped urban landscapes, they've shaped social dynamics. And so we're trying to explore how sports, its infrastructure, the culture of sports influences cities, their planning, the communities within them, the sustainability of cities.

And the main question that we want to answer is whether sports helps communities in cities thrive. And that's like a core topic for us. And so if we think about the historical context, like even from the time of ancient civilizations, sports facilities were central to urban design, serving as spaces of physical activity, social gathering, sometimes religious ceremonies, you know, from the Aztecs to the Greeks, they had sports as part of their culture.

In the industrial era, organized sports really came to the forefront. It coincided with urbanization, leading to the construction of dedicated stadiums, the start of professionalization of sports with professional teams, the integration of physical education into public schools, which also drove the interest in sports because we had time on our hands. that was one way.

for our children and adults could spend their time. And then as we've gotten into the 20th century, we have the real influence of those mega events like the Olympics, which just completed the World Cup, which was just last year. And that has had a significant impact, not just on our culture, but also on the host cities, its infrastructure, its economy. And then you also have the increasing rise of professional sports leagues.

and all the money that comes with them, bigger stadiums, bigger teams, bigger media deals, all of that is really kind of changing the landscape of our cities.

Seyi (03:49.14)
Yeah, no, thanks so much for providing that historical context. We all probably have at some form watched a movie, historical movie or documentary that will show the gladiators. Those were the sportsmen of the day and the kings and queens would watch the gladiators as they...

Reza (04:08.152)
Mm -hmm.

Seyi (04:17.886)
rode the horses or battled to determine who was the strongest or the fastest. So sports have been like cultural, central cultural experiences in cities. And that history is rich across the different cultures, honestly. So thanks for sharing that. And one of the things that

came to mind as we're talking about the history of sports as we were preparing for the show was this comment by Adam Grant. I think this was around the Olympics and he shared that sports in the old day mostly nowadays, yes, maybe a lot less so, but back in the day sports gave you a reason to be

proud of the group you belonged in without denigrating or hating the others who belonged to another city with another club. It wasn't about the reduction of others. It was about the upliftment of your own group, your in -group through sports. And I found that

Reza (05:27.906)
Okay.

Seyi (05:44.18)
fascinating as even a framing for not just the sports experiences, but how it impacts us as watchers or in some cases participants in the sports as well. So quite central. Yeah.

Reza (05:59.586)
Yeah, Yeah, and as you talked about the Olympics, the other thing that struck me just with the Olympics just over was how rare we have these type of cultural events that really bring almost everyone together. Everyone that I interacted with when the Olympics were going on, whether it was work, outside of work, the grocery store, no matter the car mechanic, we all

knew the Olympics were going on and it was like a common part of the conversation. We didn't have to talk about the weather, but we could talk about the Olympics. And it was sort of a way, and we have very few of these cultural events anymore. You we don't have the common TV shows or the common entertainments. We've all sort of fragmented into our spaces and, you know, the Olympics are a way to sort of bring us back together. you know, I think you're so right in Adam Grant's,

Seyi (06:35.54)
Yes.

Seyi (06:51.018)
Yeah.

Reza (06:56.928)
statement about you feel proud of your team and it's a way to compete and have that human desire to excel and perform in a very healthy way.

Seyi (07:16.522)
Yeah, sports, sports, again, I will always contextualize it as we have the conversation. Sports in its sort of purest form is some of the most healthy cultural experiences that exist. I believe in the past, but especially nowadays, considering how fragmented and fractured some of our other topics in cities are.

Reza (07:38.156)
Mm

Reza (07:44.3)
Yeah, yeah. So let's sort of jump into where we are in the current situation and sort of to tee off your comment there about how sports brings communities together. know, the sports events, the facilities, they all foster a sense of community identity. You know, we talked about third spaces in the last episode and how sports stadiums are great third spaces for communities to come together. You know, it's...

Like one of those third spaces that is outside of politics or outside of religion where you can identify with your team and be together with everyone there and really fulfill that desire, that identity of caring about your city and being a fan. There's also, know, is said like a lot of the modern sort of conversation about sport and sports and cities is

whether it is an economic driver that will attract tourists or create jobs. And although there used to be, there were studies in the 90s that demonstrated that this was true, more recent studies have found that has had some positive localized effects, but there are questions of whether these benefits extend to the broader metropolitan area. So maybe in that small area, there are some effects, but it's not really the driver that...

You get all these tax breaks, you get all these stadiums that are built, but they don't drive what is hoped to be done there. I think that leads to the challenge of the high costs of either hosting these major events or maintaining these large venues. It's led to many debates about what the long -term value and sustainability is for the city.

Seyi (09:29.024)
Yeah, it's an interesting one. Just speaking about the Olympics recently, apparently about $9 .7, roughly billion dollars, France spent that to host the Paris 2024 Olympics. And while it's yet to be seen,

The immediate consideration that proponents of sustainable cities point to is where was all that money when we talked about needing better roads, homes for the homeless, infrastructure for public works? Why did we not divert some of that to providing some of the infrastructure and requirements of the city?

And again, I'm so glad to hear what you just said about that there will be some cultural or city benefits post all these events. And I really think as much as we look to the cash spent, it truly is about how, in my opinion, brings people together. And the problem is that we don't maintain that spirit of togetherness.

Reza (10:42.104)
Mm

Reza (10:48.896)
Mm -hmm.

Reza (10:55.0)
Yeah.

Seyi (10:55.56)
post the Olympics. I think that's where the disconnect is. we could take that pride and desire to, hey, we're putting our best foot forward because that's what cities do by spending all that money. How do we continue to put our best foot forward collectively, even for the residents of the city? I think that's sort of where the disconnect is. not saying the money isn't a factor. It is a huge factor. I do think

Reza (11:00.258)
Yes.

Reza (11:10.082)
Yeah.

Reza (11:16.366)
Yeah. Yeah.

Seyi (11:24.81)
There are other ways to start to take that money spent and extend the value beyond the however many days an event like the Olympics or the World Cup is in a city.

Reza (11:35.958)
Yeah, I love that. I love that. know, one thing that we have overlooked talking about is about, you know, we're talking about professional sports, we're talking about the Olympics, we're talking about these stadiums, but we forget that where do all these sports people come from? They were young ones, they were youth. And I know that, Seyi you're a coach, you're a referee for your kids, for your soccer teams that you play with.

Seyi (11:55.08)
Yes, yes.

Reza (12:05.356)
And so I'm curious about, you know, what have you learned about, you know, sports infrastructure, youth sports that is both good and bad in the current situation?

Seyi (12:17.696)
That is such a, I'm so glad you brought that point up Reza because even the coaching training for US soccer, I'm a certified coach at several levels of the sport. I coach both, I've got two boys, 4v4 for the under six and 11v11 for the under 12. And the

fascinating thing about the point you just made is at the grassroots level is where everything starts. It's and Round Rock here in it's a northern suburb of Austin has some of the best grassroots parks and recreational sports infrastructure for kids.

period, had some Olympic athletes from Round Rock. And as I mentioned, I coach my six -year -olds 4v4 team. There are supposed to be eight kids on the team, but there are currently seven kids on our team. One chose baseball, which is played literally across the road from the soccer pitches at some of the best

It's a baseball facility that is, I think the Dell diamond, it's huge. It's beautiful. And these kids get to play there. But back to the soccer, that team that I coach has a black kid, a white kid, a Brazilian kid, an Indian kid, a kid whose parents, and right when I say all these, mean, their parents.

Reza (13:56.973)
Mmm.

Seyi (14:16.938)
come from all these different places and a Mexican kid. And I haven't even gotten through the whole team. What is my point here? There are very few spaces, places, experiences outside of sports where my kid will get to engage with such a diverse group of other kids. It removes social economics.

Reza (14:25.208)
Yeah.

Reza (14:42.039)
Mmm.

Seyi (14:46.634)
There are very few other spaces where myself as the coach of the team will get to interact with seven groups of parents from all these places across the world who have come together on this park to watch, support and belong to a team. Very few spaces.

Reza (15:10.446)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Seyi (15:16.202)
especially in our current culture. So the importance of sport, yeah, we think about all the big infrastructure. I'm so glad you're reframing it. We think about the big infrastructure and Olympic level athletics and sports, but it is the most impactful at the grassroots level.

Reza (15:33.196)
Yeah. And I want to bring up an experience from my childhood. So I grew up in Mumbai and I was a competitive swimmer. And fortunately, I was very successful because I was from a family of means. We had the ability for me to participate. And so I could belong to the private club, which had the best coach, and I could afford to travel to all the swim meets.

And that helped me, I was able to come to the US for a three month period and do a summer swim camp. So all those things were true for me, but it wasn't for anyone else that wasn't of means. And so I fortunately was very successful. I was a national swimmer, I was an international swimmer, and it was a indelible part of my childhood and indelible part of my, who I am today. And I think that

Seyi (16:10.015)
Yeah.

Seyi (16:14.218)
Yeah.

Seyi (16:20.253)
Yeah.

Reza (16:32.118)
Maybe the underlying text of what you're saying is, Seyi, and please sort of tell me that we have to find ways of making sports inclusionary. Cause you had the stat that you mentioned about the Olympic athletes. So maybe talk about that part.

Seyi (16:44.959)
Yes.

Seyi (16:50.482)
Yeah, so this I'll give all the credit to Michelle, my wife, for this one during the Olympics, we would see they'd show the US Olympic athlete competitors name and this their town or city. That was the way showing just how varied the towns and cities were. And I think it was maybe night two or three of the Olympics. And my wife goes,

I have yet to recognize any one of these towns that the Olympics Chiron is throwing up here showing where the US athletes from. I wonder why that is. So she's she's a nerd. It's amazing. She's proud to be as well. She starts to dig. And it turns out that almost

75 to 80 % or so, correct me if I get this number wrong, 75 % of the top athletes that represented the US came from towns with less than 10 ,000 people in the community in that town. And the big cities were less represented than the...

the smaller towns and cities. And that number might even be higher than the 75%, I'm saying. So she starts digging a little bit. And the thing she sort of researches and finds out is that the athletes, the environment in these smaller towns are inclusive enough that everyone has access.

And consequently, the best rise to the top and get access to continue to become the best in whatever sport it is. And consequently, they bubble up and eventually become Olympic athletes. While in cities, there was a point, my older boy was in competitive fencing and

Seyi (19:15.27)
you had to pay a couple thousand dollars to equip a nine -year -old boy to fence. How many people will pay that? And consequently, you had a drop -off. There were certain socioeconomic classes that couldn't engage in that sport.

Reza (19:25.314)
Mm -hmm.

Seyi (19:40.266)
Contrast that with some of these others track and field soccer and maybe soccer is starting to get a little bit exclusionary in most places, honestly, but the point still stands that the more we can give access to everyone to participate, engage in sports, the better belonging people will feel across all socioeconomic classes and consequently.

Reza (19:44.846)
Mm

Reza (20:05.238)
Mm -hmm.

Seyi (20:10.174)
we will thrive in our cities.

Reza (20:12.16)
I love that. I love that. Such a good way to sort of bring together like where does sports come from and why does it matter in cities? I have one more point to bring up about the current state of sports in cities and then we'll jump into the laws. So we have seen in some cities, because of these economic challenges and localized effects of just building a stadium, some cities are exploring

Seyi (20:20.104)
Yes. Yes.

Reza (20:40.172)
sort of multifunctional designs and mixed land use ways of integrating sports facilities with other urban amenities, a train station like the train station that we have at the Austin FC Stadium, other transportation networks to try to find a way of improving the city through that sport facility. And I think that's an interesting trend to explore. But with that, let's pause on this. Let's jump into the laws that we have.

the 21 laws of cities, and then we can sort of project what the future, like what we need in the future for this.

Seyi (21:17.024)
Fantastic. So there are two laws that we find apply as it relates to sports and the future of cities. The first one is that mixed land use enhances urban vitality. Cities with a mix of residential, commercial, and recreational land uses, recreational being sports in this case, tend to be more vibrant, walkable, and economically resilient.

And this is from the research of Jacobs and a few other researchers from 1961, highlighting the importance of mixed use neighborhoods for urban vitality. And I mean, Jane Jacobs, when I say Jacobs now in her book, The Death and Life of Great American Cities. And when we don't provide sort of recreational

multi or mixed use amenities, we see these atrophy. We see that in images that show certain parts of cities that people don't go to anymore, even as they used to thrive before. One quick example actually comes to mind again from the soccer example. The people say kids don't bike as much anymore.

The league uses younger referees for the little league game. Some of these kids that play soccer at the, they use teenagers and the ref for the game yesterday for my son plays for the club I coach at. And I was like, how did he get here? He had him and a few of his friends had cycled to get to the.

Reza (23:09.614)
Hmm.

Seyi (23:12.362)
fields, we're earning a little bit of money, we're getting to hang out with older adults like myself who coach, they were referees for games of six, seven, eight year old kids. And as we were leaving the game, they were all cycling back home. And just the vitality of that is part of what

Reza (23:36.906)
Mm. Yeah.

Seyi (23:40.67)
this law represents. And that didn't think about this when we're talking earlier, but it just occurred to me to mention that now as well. And the second law that matters here is that public spaces foster social cohesion. Same story applies. Accessible, well -designed public spaces are essential for fostering community interactions, civic engagement, and social cohesion in cities.

And this is from research by White, 1980, demonstrating the importance of public space design in his study, The Social Life of Small Urban Spaces. And when we don't have these urban spaces that are enhancing the cohesion of our communities, it will lead to, again, reduced social interaction, a decreased sense of community.

and potentially increases in crime as well.

Reza (24:41.67)
Yeah. I couldn't think of a better way of exploring those two laws. I think it really hits home how sports actually plays a part in making a community thrive. So, Shay, let's sort of project forward and think about what matters. What are the future trends for sports in cities? The first one that I think is important is climate resilient sports infrastructure.

future sports facilities will need to adapt to changing climate conditions and contribute to the city's goals somehow. And we can look at one example of the World Cup in Qatar and air conditioned stadiums. And that's inconsiderate about the climate impacts of what they were doing there. But just broader than that, not to focus on that one thing, but if you can imagine as

the world gets hotter, can your kids play soccer any time of the day during the summer months is gonna be an interesting challenge. And so this is something that we will have to sort of figure out. The second one here is very much in line with what you have mentioned, inclusive and accessible sports spaces. So there needs to be a really growing emphasis on creating sports facilities that cater to diverse populations.

Seyi (25:42.206)
Yeah. Yeah.

Seyi (25:51.646)
Absolutely.

Reza (26:07.126)
all ages, abilities, and all socioeconomic strata. And I think that's like a critical part of helping our communities thrive. You described so well about the soccer team and how all those individual kids, like your kid is never gonna experience that anywhere else, but they're gonna learn how I can be together with these people in my community without thinking of them as the other. And then urban sports and recreation,

Seyi (26:30.951)
Absolutely.

Reza (26:37.076)
cities need to plan for how to integrate this into their infrastructure and how it needs to be part of the urban design. And the next one is very related to that, which is we need to have more community -centered sports development. So participatory planning and community ownership models need to become more common in sports facility development. how can...

Seyi (26:47.829)
Yeah.

Reza (27:04.716)
the community feel some ownership for what they have and participate in its development. And then the last one, which is probably interesting, which is the sports landscape is also evolving. So we have the rise of e -sports, which just seems kind of crazy to me, but cities must remain flexible to accommodate these types of emerging sports and changing preferences. I have a funny story to share over here.

Seyi (27:18.997)
Yes.

Seyi (27:31.21)
Yeah.

Please.

Reza (27:34.261)
My friend Ed, his son William, loves to play video games and he loves to watch other people play video games. And Ed was just ribbing him and said, why do you watch other people playing video games? And he quickly retorted that, why do you watch people playing football games? For William, video games are a sport.

Seyi (27:53.76)
Very true.

Reza (28:00.352)
a form of sport. It's a modern form of sport, maybe not one that we can relate to because we didn't participate in the level that they do. But that's a part of like, as the culture evolves, we need to be thinking about like, how the city should be thinking of sports and culture.

Seyi (28:00.756)
Yes. Yes. Yes.

Seyi (28:09.652)
Yeah.

Seyi (28:20.276)
No, thank you. a good example. And one thing I'd love you to touch on that sort of ties a few of these future trends that you mentioned is the third space element of sports. We touched on this before, but I'd love to get your thoughts on how, when we talk about some of the public spaces episode, how the sports facilities and when it

Reza (28:36.344)
Yeah.

Seyi (28:49.278)
went away, the mailbag received from Eric, it shifted something in the community. And what you just mentioned is sort of community centered sports development, those spaces being owned by the community. What's your thinking about third spaces as it relates to sports?

Reza (29:02.509)
Yeah.

Reza (29:07.028)
Yeah, it's a powerful way for us to make our communities thrive. It's the place where we can come together. It's the place where we can come together outside of religion and politics. It's a way for us, for our youth to find ways of interacting with others that is positive. It is a way for them to instill in them values that help them become better citizens with

with a of a civic mindset that helps that city with that type of attitude. So I think it's really critical that we think of this very important third space, especially in this time, in this fraught time of division and how it makes a difference in our cities.

Seyi (30:03.294)
Yeah, it's so important. Interestingly, to your point about will the kids be able to play soccer when it's hot? And I've been thinking, and I'm putting this out to the universe. I've been thinking about an indoor sports development center, mainly focused on soccer, a space somewhere in North Austin that has access

Reza (30:26.072)
Hmm.

Seyi (30:31.196)
easy access for folk in the northern suburbs that they can come down and even folk from downtown. But it is a multi -purpose center that allows kids to actually practice and continue to grow and learn in what is partially outside, partially inside, even in the worst of times. There were many days during the summer where

Reza (30:34.296)
Mm.

Reza (30:42.284)
Mm.

Seyi (31:00.352)
Soccer practice couldn't start until about 7 p even though we were supposed to start at 6, but we had to wait till 7 because it was too hot. And for just thriving cities and communities, that cannot continue to happen. Otherwise, we lose the part of sport that really binds us together.

Reza (31:04.995)
Mm.

Reza (31:10.339)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Reza (31:29.339)
Yeah, so I'm going to close with our call to action. have two. The first one is observe all the sports facilities in your city and see how it weaves into the social infrastructure, whether it's professional sports or whether it's youth sports, like where does it fit? And then the second one is if you are part of this type of third space, if you're a fan of a professional team of yours,

Seyi (31:33.716)
Yes.

Reza (31:54.58)
or if you participate in youth sports with your kids or sports, you you participate in sports, think of whether it is inclusive. Think of whether it allows anyone in your city to participate. Can they go to watch that game? Can they come and participate in your league? Can a child from anywhere come and be part of your team? Because this is the critical

part of making a community come together and feel like they're part of the city.

Seyi (32:31.018)
That's a fantastic one. The belonging that is required. Are you creating the space or the option for anyone who shares a similar interest to belong is such a great call to action, Reza.

Reza (32:49.036)
Yeah, yeah. So with that, Shay, we don't have a mailbag this week, but we're excited to share this with all of you. As we always say, we're not experts, we're driven by curiosity. So if you have something that we haven't considered about this episode or if you have an idea for a future episode for us to explore, please share it with us.

Reza (33:19.5)
And then the last thing I will say is, you know, it really helps when you either rate or review our podcast, it helps other people find us, like and subscribe on YouTube. We are also on YouTube. And as we always say, find that one person in your life that you think would enjoy this episode, share it with them. We're growing every week. I'm excited to see more and more people that are part of our future forward community. So please help us keep growing.

Seyi (33:26.954)
Yes.

Seyi (33:49.214)
Yes, and until next time, thanks for listening. Bye.

Reza (33:53.186)
Thank you everyone, bye.