Future Forward

Seyi (00:02.242)
Hello, hello, hello Reza, how are you?

Reza (00:04.242)
I'm good Seyi how you doing?

Seyi (00:06.058)
I am good today. We are back here for future forward. How do you feel?

Reza (00:12.488)
Yeah, I'm very excited about this one today because we're changing it up. Seyi, when you send me the text, I said, what are we going to do this week? And you said, we're going to talk about the top five books about cities. I'm like, yes, that sounds like a great idea. I didn't think about it, but this is one. We're changing it up a little bit. I'm to have our format that's a little bit, we're just going to talk about the books that we both love. But before we jump into that, Seyi, tell our listeners what Future Forward is about.

Seyi (00:25.027)
Yeah.

Seyi (00:39.734)
Yes, to our new listeners, welcome. Thanks for joining us. And to our old listeners, thanks for coming back again. Future Forward is a conversation Reza and I have been having for years. And we thought we'd bring you all in. It's about cities, the history of cities, the infrastructure, the systems that make cities run, and how that history threads through to today.

And we provide some strategic foresight using, again, that historical context, the current day, and our views on where the cities are going towards building thriving communities and sustainable cities. So welcome to this episode. And as Reza just said, it's our top five books on cities.

Reza (01:27.732)
Yeah. And one thing that we will do as we talk about each of these books is we will relate it back to the 21 laws of cities that we've defined and that we've talked about in prior episodes. Che, the cool thing when you and I were coming up with our list is we had a lot of crossover on what books we thought were the top. And then we had some that were very different. And so that's going to be interesting to see what

Seyi (01:48.844)
We did.

Seyi (01:53.975)
Yes.

Reza (01:57.046)
what this brings. So why don't we jump in with the first one?

Seyi (02:01.42)
I'll jump right in. This was one of our crossover books, and it is Scaled by Geoffrey West. It's not really a book solely focused on cities, but it covers a lot of the ideas and universal laws that govern growth and behavior of complex systems. And as we've said time and time again on this show, the city is a complex system.

In Scale, Geoffrey West, it's a phenomenal book. It's huge. I have it here. And it's one of my most bookmarked books for those of you who watched it on video. And in Scale, Geoffrey West takes this biological look at complex systems. He is a theoretical physicist at the Santa Fe Institute. And he applies the idea of scaling laws.

which are mathematical principles that describe how characteristics of a system change as the system grows. So it uses these to explain patterns in nature, in cities, in society and organizations. And the law from our 21 laws that applies based on the book here is that urban scaling predicts city performance.

And the general concept being as cities grow, they exhibit predictable scaling relationships across socioeconomic and infrastructural indicators. That was a lot, but what it simply means is as cities grow, and the main premise here is this sub -linear scaling and economies of scale in cities. As a city grows,

the infrastructure required to serve more people in the city will not be just a linear relationship. You don't have to add more roads because more people show up at the same pace as more people are showing up is maybe the simplest way to describe that. And he suggests, as I've just explained, that physical infrastructure elements scale.

Seyi (04:27.154)
subliminally, which is less than linear to the growth of the people who move in. The idea being that larger cities will use resources more efficiently. It is a law. So as you can imagine, that is what should happen. But as some of you probably live in Austin, like Reza and I do already know, there's a challenge with meeting

the infrastructure demands, the sub -linear infrastructure demands of people who move into a city. And Austin has experienced a lot of challenges. There's work already projected for I -35 downtown to expand the roads. We need a lot more housing in Austin to house all the people, excuse me, moving in. And there's just...

so much that this law highlights about why and how we're doing things wrong in a city like Austin. Public transportation has never been prioritized. And as people have moved in, we're increasing roads when what we should do is, and as we've discussed on a previous episode here, increase the options of multimodal transportation.

for all the people who move into the city. And so we're totally flouting Geoffrey West's law along those lines. And then the final point I'll talk about in the book Scaling, which I thought to draw out, is this point around social dynamics and scaling. I pulled this one out because this is your thing, Reza. Community, social interactions.

Reza (06:18.728)
You

Seyi (06:24.168)
In the book, Geoffrey West highlights that biological systems have limits to growth. This is an idea. Donella Meadows also talks about a lot in her book, Thinking in Systems, which I would have added to my list, but it's an honorary mention. Yeah. One of my favorite books, but it says a lot less about cities than scale, hence the inclusion of scale.

Reza (06:41.596)
you

Seyi (06:51.99)
But the social dynamics and scaling idea is that there are limits to growth in biological systems, but cities, in contrast, defy those limits. Cities have no theoretical upper bound is sort of the idea Geoffrey West is pointing out here. They constantly innovate, cities being they, through social and technological changes.

Reza (07:05.556)
Mm.

Seyi (07:21.502)
that adaptation as the city scales and the social adaptation that happens provides both the resilience of cities and the vulnerability of cities. So the size of the city allows it to weather all types of crises in comparison to smaller towns, but that same size

has a ton of complexity, making it harder to govern and create bonds amongst the people in the city. Because when the city is too large and people complain about New York in this sense, it's such a big city, we're all just passing each other by on the roads. You have to do a lot more work to break down and build smaller bonds.

Reza (08:04.382)
Mm

Reza (08:18.58)
Mm -hmm.

Seyi (08:19.224)
of belonging in those cities. So Austin is also experiencing a little bit of this, I think, the vulnerabilities that have come as a result of the tech boom, a lot more people, a lot more money, a lot more people of means moved from New York and the East Coast and San Francisco, California and the West Coast. And for the locals,

Reza (08:26.43)
Yeah.

Seyi (08:47.106)
who have always kept Austin weird.

Reza (08:50.345)
Mm -hmm.

Seyi (08:52.202)
it became unaffordable. A lot of the musicians had to move out of the city. The people who gave Austin its social culture can no longer afford to live here. And thankfully, there's a lot of work being done to try and rectify some of these problems as a result of scaling. But Scale is a phenomenal book. It's not a quick read by any stretch. You will have to sit down with it.

take a ton of notes, but you will leave better able to assess the experiences you're having in a city as a result of reading Skilled by Geoffrey West.

Reza (09:34.299)
Yeah. Yeah, a couple things, Seyi, this is, I remember you mentioning this book to me and then I picked it up when I went to visit my parents in India in 2021, around the time of the pandemic. I couldn't go anywhere. I spent my time reading that book and spending my time with my parents. I too have so many notes in there, so many bookmarks. I remember sending you pictures of the notes that I took going back and forth on

Seyi (10:01.376)
Yes.

Reza (10:02.996)
what we thought was fascinating about it. I loved how I understood systems better, in a biological way and then thinking about cities in that sort system way as well. And it was fascinating to understand how cities don't have the limits of biological. It's like it's a strange thing. Cities can continue to grow, which is kind of crazy. And then you have...

Seyi (10:10.828)
Yes.

Seyi (10:29.047)
Yeah.

Reza (10:31.512)
you know, things break as it does, like you're mentioning. So it's this very fascinating, like it's almost as humans. I was talking to my friend Carolyn and she was, you know, relating, you know, cities to a book that she's reading called The Infinite Game by Simon Sinek. Many of you might know it. And she talks like cities is almost like it's an infinite game. It keeps growing, but we keep applying finite mindset to how we deal with a city instead of thinking of it as a system that's organic. So it's a very

Seyi (10:33.473)
Yes.

Seyi (10:55.479)
Mmm.

Reza (11:01.31)
complex problem. And that probably comes across in every discussion, like all these trade -offs that we have in dealing with cities. So that's a great one, Shea.

Seyi (11:07.181)
Yeah.

Fantastic, yeah, shared book. And what's the second one Reza?

Reza (11:15.346)
Yeah, so the second one's a shared book as well. We've mentioned it on this episode, How Infrastructure Works by Deb Chachra She's a professor at Olin College in Boston. And this book is about infrastructure. But one of the things that was really interesting to me and fascinating is she redefines how we think of infrastructure.

So we often think about physical infrastructure like roads, bridges, buildings, which she does talk about, but she also emphasizes that social infrastructure such as schools, libraries, community centers, healthcare facilities, they're just as critical to the long -term sustainability and the vitality of an urban area. And we have one of our laws, we have defined as social infrastructure is as crucial as physical infrastructure.

And we say that investment in social infrastructure, including schools, libraries, community centers, health facilities, is as important as physical infrastructure for sustainable urban development. So it's very, very much echoes what she has written. you know, she's the reason why she thinks social infrastructure, and I'm picking this particular topic from the book, because I think it's really critical. She says that social infrastructure really helps bind our communities together. It is what helps.

Seyi (12:30.125)
Yes.

Reza (12:38.942)
foster resilience and inclusion. When we invest in these social spaces, we're not just creating physical assets, we're creating these nurturing environments where people can connect, they can learn, they can grow. A well -placed library, a community center becomes a hub where citizens can come, access resources, form bonds with others, build collective knowledge and make it a more thriving place. So she's reminding us that a city is not just built from steel and concrete.

but also from these strong social connections and access to community services. And she gives three really good examples in her book, or I'm gonna share three examples from her book, because they're really good. So she talks about libraries and says it's not just a repository for books, they function as a crucial hub for community resilience. And libraries have evolved a lot. They're not, know, if you go to a library today, it's not just books over there.

you have internet access and educational programs and some have job training and social services. They've really become this kind of hub. And she gives an example from New York City in the aftermath of Hurricane Sandy in 2012. Many of the public libraries in New York City acted as relief centers, providing electricity, internet access, information to those that were affected. So it becomes part of the social fabric of the city and they make it essential for a city to adapt.

And we talked about this in one of our episodes about, you know, crisis and, you know, how these types of spaces, you know, make recovering from it better. The second one that I'll touch on is she talks about schools. You don't often think about this as infrastructure, but she points out that they serve as anchors, not just for education, but for broader social mobility and community cohesion.

So if they're well -funded, if they're accessible, they contribute directly to social equity, which is a core part of urban sustainability. She talks about Finland and their world -class education system as an example. So those Finnish cities invest heavily in schools. They make them not just a place for learning for children, but a place for lifelong learning, for community events, for social integration.

Reza (14:59.812)
So they put in investment so that everyone, no matter what their background, can have access to a quality education, whether you're young or old. And this really helps reduce inequality. This brings these different generations together. And I think this is like, we've talked about this being a, you know, making things inclusive and accessible. This is a really good example of that. So I love that one. And the final one that I'll bring up.

Seyi (15:21.24)
Mm -hmm.

Reza (15:27.474)
from the book is the role of community centers. And of course, they are meant to be a place for like civic engagement, recreation, social support. But the one example that was shared was from Medellin, Colombia. And she highlights its innovative use of public spaces and community centers together. So they have this thing called library parks.

which are spaces that combine libraries with parks and community centers. And they sort of become part of this broader social infrastructure initiative to reduce violence and promote social cohesion. So they have educational resources, cultural activities, safe places for residents to gather. And I think this has, you know, like a really good effect on reducing crime, enhancing, you know, community resilience and bringing people together. I love that example.

So it was a really good book and that's one aspect of the book. I highly encourage folks to read it.

Seyi (16:32.618)
Yes, that's another one that we both enjoy and we've constantly exchanged notes about and Deb Chachra we're fans. We should be scheduling her on the show soon. We'll look out for that to our listeners. We're pretty excited about it. I love how, one comment, I love how she...

Reza (16:41.246)
Yeah.

Reza (16:49.673)
Yeah.

Seyi (17:00.766)
Even as she was talking about heavy infrastructure, she talked about dams and really tied it back to the social infrastructure element and often ignored when we talk about the hard underlying infrastructure and systems that keep our cities together. So pretty, pretty good book.

Reza (17:06.44)
Yeah.

Reza (17:11.016)
Yeah.

Reza (17:25.81)
Yeah, all right. Okay Seyi, let's go to the next one.

Seyi (17:30.976)
Yes, the next book here is one of the landmark works on books by Jane Jacobs, and it's the death and life of great American cities. And Honore mentioned to a smaller text, she also has the economic life of cities. It's a lot of the ideas about the economic life of cities that she mentioned in the death and life of great American cities come from.

Reza (17:49.3)
Mm

Seyi (18:00.318)
and end up in the other book as well. So I wanted to mention that as well. And for anyone who's been involved in cities, this book is probably one of the first few you read because Jane Jacobs was a staunch critic of the movement of Robert Moses, who, and they were both in New York. And for again, if you've been involved in cities,

You know of Robert Moses, the man who built New York infrastructure pretty much both for the good and the bad. He, he wasn't a public official, but he had a hand in the mass infrastructure that is keeping New York City running. And in the Death and Life of Great American Cities, Jane Jacobs criticizes the widespread spread use of large sort of monolithic

very boring urban renewal projects. And she argues that it, tying it to Deb Chachra's book actually, that it destroys the social fabric of cities. She opposed the top -down approach of planners, which Robert Moses was, and she just struggled with this advocacy for expressways, high -rise homes.

Reza (19:13.108)
Yeah.

Seyi (19:27.51)
zoning laws that demolished thriving neighborhoods at the altar of just growth and infrastructure. she, Jane Jacobs was quite adamant that all these policies and infrastructure implementation disrupted the organic intricate nature of urban life. And it was a direct link between those decisions, those projects and

empty streets, crime and social isolation in our cities. And this ties to one of our laws that comes really directly from her book and her work, which is that mixed land use enhances urban vitality. The idea being that cities with a mix of residential, commercial and recreational land use tend to be more vibrant, walkable and economically resilient.

because fundamentally tied to another second law of ours that comes from this book, that local economic development builds resilience in cities. So I'll touch on a few of the ideas that sort of popped out to us and which led to some of the laws we shared here. And Jane Jacobs advocated for in the book mixed use neighborhoods where you have

just the mixture of, and not the, think you mentioned this before on the episode where we talked about this, not this mixed use in buildings where you have multiple, no, it's mixed land use where you have spaces for people, homes, commercial activity, and all within an area. And I think,

Reza (21:09.597)
Mm

Reza (21:13.618)
Mm -hmm.

Seyi (21:26.232)
a lot of the ideas for the 15 minute city stem from how Jane Jacobs was thinking about the environments we create in our cities. And there was this idea in the book, or there is this idea in the book, which is the eyes on the street idea, which comes early in the book, actually, where she's talking about, it's one of the most famous concepts, where she's talking about

Reza (21:29.524)
Mm

Reza (21:47.25)
Mm

Seyi (21:54.892)
the presence of people going about their daily lives, walking, walking, shopping, create a natural form of public surveillance that enhances safety, but also increases the help and support that the community provides. And the example she used in the book, which I thought was a really fun one, she had walked to a position, place in New York.

sat on a bench, on a bench, which is where I believe the bus would typically stop. It wasn't really a bus stop, but I think it was a point where the bus would stop. And one of the neighbors, one of the eyes on the street, the lady opened her window and called out to her saying, the bus doesn't stop here at this time on this day. You have to walk a bit further down and, and

go catch your bus. Even though she wasn't there to catch a bus, she was just taking a break from her walk, but it made her realize that the eyes on the street are not just public surveillance. It is part of just the good natured fabric that keeps people safe and living their lives in cities. So that was a really cool one. And I actually feel we've lost this a lot in Austin.

Reza (22:57.96)
Yeah.

Reza (23:09.246)
Mm -hmm.

Reza (23:21.524)
Mm

Seyi (23:22.988)
There's a lot more sprawl, which is understandable, especially since there's no more housing in the middle of the city for all the people who've moved in, and consequently, less eyes on the street, quote unquote. And as much as we can figure out ways to get back to that, I think it would be great. And Jane Jacobs shares some ideas about how we can move to this.

Reza (23:35.901)
Yes. Yes.

Seyi (23:51.134)
organic nature of cities that doesn't favor infrastructure and development over the social fabric that keeps it is going. It's a phenomenal book. It was written in the 1960s. No surprises that it is still referenced consistently.

Reza (24:08.978)
Wow. This is great. So when I was in New York City, I experienced what Jane Jacobs thought was a vibrant area, which is West Village. And we were staying in a hotel just a little north of there. And so I walked down to the West Village a few times.

Seyi (24:22.391)
Mm -hmm.

Reza (24:31.506)
Within that area, like the moment you walk into that area, you sense a change. You're not in this rigid block structure that is rest of Manhattan with these towering buildings. it's pretty, know, Manhattan's pretty jarring and energetic. And you get to the West Village and it suddenly becomes more human. Like there's a human scale to it and there's a mix of things there. you know, within a few blocks, you have Three Lives Books, which is a small local bookstore. Go there. Amazing. One of the best small bookstores I've ever been to.

You have the Village Vanguard, one of the best jazz clubs. You have Bleaker Street Pizza, one of the best New York slices. I'm sure they're better ones, but great. And then people walking around, little pocket parks here and little businesses there. It just feels human scale. And so I think...

I think that's what she was referring to. It is rare. mean, there's very few places in Austin that are like that. Maybe Clarksville or Hyde Park still retain some portion of that, but the rest of it, you know, it doesn't. And there aren't eyes on streets. Like we have our eyes on our phones. You we're not paying attention to the world outside us, which is unfortunate. Yeah.

Seyi (25:43.97)
That is such a true point. I'll touch on that example you just gave, actually, because the times I felt the most eyes on the street and in part of a community is whenever I go to, shout out to Black Pearl Books, because I will be in there, a good friend's own the bookstore and

It's where I've run into Austin Cleon and we had a conversation because he will just cycle to the store to come pick up a book and just chat. And around there, you have some of these old iconic food places in Austin that are still keeping Austin weird. And there are pockets, as you're suggesting, but not so much as really

Reza (26:19.07)
Yep. Yep. Yep.

Reza (26:28.723)
Yeah.

Seyi (26:40.748)
is required to keep the city, like tighten it like it used to be. So what's the next book Reza?

Reza (26:43.506)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, so number four on the list. So we're going to go to fiction. And this is another book that both you and I have loved, which is Ministry of the Future. was literally the favorite book that I read in 2022. Kim Stanley Robinson, he's a science fiction writer. But this is not a science fiction book, although it is science fictiony as in he's projecting what the world would be in the future, projecting about 20 years into the future.

and he presents this vision of this near future with the world is just grappling with the devastating impacts of climate change and offers bold solutions where cities in particular are central to both the problems and the solutions that he brings up. The law that applies over here is climate resilience is an urban imperative and we say cities must adapt to climate change.

impacts while simultaneously working to mitigate their contributions to global warming. It's a long book. He does a fantastic job of finding a couple characters that serve as a narrative thread all the way through it and brings in all these ideas of what the future needs to look like from a very system -oriented, holistic way. I'm only going to pick up three examples from the book. They really do the book disservice. There's so much more in it.

and I highly encourage you to read it. So the first one he talks about is flood resilient infrastructure. And he explores how cities must prepare for more flooding with rising sea levels, extreme weather events. And in the novel, several coastal cities invest in large scale flood defense systems like New York builds this huge gate to protect it from floods and redesign the urban layouts to include more

Reza (28:42.652)
water absorbent surfaces and green spaces to mitigate flood risks. There's real world examples we see from the Netherlands. They have done these innovative projects in Rotterdam, water plazas, flood resilient infrastructure. It manages excess water during storms, provides recreational spaces for the residents during the dry periods. They've made this dual purpose infrastructure vital

to the urban design and area and also save them from the risk of flooding from climate change. And we're experiencing that type of flooding today. mean, just last week, four different continents had extreme flood events. And although he's writing about the future, like this is a problem that we will have to tackle starting today. So in that sense, reading fiction about it,

Seyi (29:29.538)
Yes.

Reza (29:42.654)
helps you imagine what the good and the future could look like. The second one he touches on that I picked is equity and climate adaptation. I thought this was really well done on his part to think not just about the small group of people that can save themselves because they have the means, but how can everyone benefit from the work that needs to be done? He really wants to make that climate adaptation concept

that is equitable. so even the poorest and most vulnerable urban populations in the book are addressed because they're the hardest hit by climate change, whether it's extreme weather, rising food prices, lack of access to cooling or health services. So in the novel, the cities prioritize social resilience by ensuring that climate adaptation strategies are accessible to all, not just the wealthy. And I love that. I love a novel that imagines

that type of future, because we don't quite live in a world like that. But we do have real world examples, like New York City in response to Hurricane Sandy, they implemented a comprehensive climate resilience plan that includes building flood defenses in low income areas like Red Hook, Brooklyn. So we do have examples. I don't want to paint a doom and gloom picture. So that does exist. And then the last one I think was really the one I picked that was interesting, one of the most radical ideas in the book.

Seyi (30:58.743)
Yes.

Reza (31:09.876)
is the use of geoengineering to cool the planet. And so in the book, when global efforts to reduce emissions fails to prevent runaway climate change, the world leaders resort to stratospheric aerosol injection to reflect sunlight and temporarily cool the planet. They also go to Antarctica to pull water out of the sea and then pump it onto the ice shelf for it to freeze.

Excuse me. It's a radical imagining of what the future is. It's kind of controversial, but cities might need to do that. It's kind of theoretical today. I know that there are some experiments around it. It has some potential effect to help us with climate change. It's not the best solution, but it highlights the fact that we have to imagine other solutions.

because climate change is not slowing down. And I loved it because it highlights human ingenuity and adaptability. That's what we do best as humans. And there's a lot of doom and gloom that we feel about climate change, but this book really made me feel hopeful on multiple levels. And one last thing that I would say about it, the other part that the book really addressed well is the change in

sort of the system, the economic and political system. know, capitalism was not the core way to go forward. You know, the government systems had to adapt to making the world work in this particular way, which I thought was also an incredibly interesting reimagining of the future.

Seyi (32:59.544)
Yeah, no, there's another one that we thoroughly both enjoy. And I'm so glad you brought this one up, even though it's a fiction book, but you're 100 % correct. The first, for anyone who hasn't read it, we implore that you do. The first chapter of this book is one of the most sort of striking fiction book beginnings I've read.

Reza (33:25.061)
Mm -hmm.

Seyi (33:29.528)
maybe in a long time, maybe ever. It's one of the most striking, because it still stays with me. I read it in 2022, I believe, as well. And I can still almost recite the whole first chapter. was that good. I implore our listeners to please pick up that book if you're a fan of fiction and some of these more nonfiction books are not your...

Reza (33:31.657)
Mm

Reza (33:35.432)
Yes.

Reza (33:57.778)
Yeah, too wonkish. All right, let's go to the fifth one, Seyi.

Seyi (33:58.786)
cup of tea. Yeah.

Seyi (34:04.322)
The fifth one. So the fifth one is almost as much a coffee table book as it is a book, but it is called City, a guidebook for the urban age by P .D. Smith. And for those who are watching the video, here it is. And this one is this dense exploration of the history, evolution, and future of cities.

If you've listened to this podcast, that is literally how we laid the podcast out. So no surprises that the book is, one of the books we selected. And in the book, P. Smith highlights the role of cities as centers of culture, innovation, and social organization. It is structured like a guidebook. It delves into the origins of cities, Uruk, Athens, Rome.

what contributions they've made and continue to make to human civilizations. And the challenges modern cities, New York, Mumbai, Lagos, Chicago, Tokyo currently face as inequality increases, sustainability and climate change become real, and overpopulation is a problem in some of these cities. P .D. Smith also examines places like

Dubai and Singapore, which are cities that were planted essentially, not really organic cities in that sense, Dubai being the best example of this and how innovation, urban and technological advancement are playing a part in how these cities are trying to provide a model for

what the future of cities will look like. It won't surprise anyone. All our laws apply when you read this book. As you read it, you're like, this is law number nine or something. So we won't specifically name one law or two, but we would encourage if, again, if you're into the wonky stuff. It's a fair book. He starts with the evolution.

Reza (36:09.758)
Yeah.

Seyi (36:30.166)
traces the origins, agriculture played a big part in the early days and consequently trade led to bustling metropolises. No surprises there. We've of touched on these things before and how the models of the old original cities and the function they played in human life as economic and cultural capitals really

meant that cities were going to continue to exist is maybe the best way to frame it because we come to cities to become. Whatever it is we're trying to become, cities tend to represent the opportunity to capture the aspirations we have. And he talks about that in the book. And for me,

as I look through this, because I just flip through it time to time, this phrase, keep Austin weird, it ties a lot of the ideas he's talking about in the book together. Because when you hear keep Austin weird, it is both this economic call as well as a cultural statement of what the city is. And the reason why

Reza (37:35.934)
Mm -hmm.

Reza (37:49.65)
Mm -hmm.

Seyi (37:55.358)
it's become almost like this rallying cry, keep Austin weird, is because individuals in Austin who are maybe natives or have lived there for a long time can feel both that cultural heartbeat, i .e. the musicians can't afford to live here, they don't make the music.

The bars don't have live music as much as they used to for that reason.

And the people who've experienced this all their lives are like, we're losing this. Let's keep this word. While at the same time, it is also the economic loss because the businesses aren't, quote unquote, going to be thriving as much as the cultural carriers, the culture carriers are leaving the city. And so the book does a really good job of melding these cultural and economic concepts together.

Reza (38:39.111)
Okay.

Seyi (38:57.568)
which is why I thought it made for the number five book. It's filled with a lot of imagery. I like that as well. It's a dense book, but it's got a ton of good imagery as well. And there's a whole chapter on where to stay. It's in the element of a guidebook where it's this general idea and downtown plays a big role. And we've talked about downtowns in the office edition as well.

Reza (39:13.179)
Thank

Reza (39:23.635)
Mm -hmm.

Seyi (39:26.936)
I will confess though that he's a researcher. He's a researcher and a writer. The projects that talk about the future of cities, like smart cities and stuff, are not as robust as we've come to find in a lot of the other books we've read. So the book was written in 2012. I will admit that maybe it suffers from

Reza (39:37.352)
Mm

Seyi (39:55.352)
Even though it was like 12 years ago, it suffers from being slightly dated in its ideas about smart cities because we're living in some of those future dates that he projected. And some of those things really don't quite make sense. Super solid on the history, really thorough on the present, but a bit of a gap there in how we frames the future. Well worth a read.

Reza (40:16.756)
Mm.

Seyi (40:24.167)
And you can just have it as a reference and a guidebook if you're into cities like we are. Well recommended,

Reza (40:30.748)
Yeah. Yeah. So this is one that I haven't read. You know, it's one that needs to be on my shelf. You know, so that's five. you know, there's a bonus book here, Seyi. I had to add this one. So we're going to add one. And this one's a little bit, you know, out of left field. You know, this one's called Will in the World by Stephen Greenblatt. I'm a Shakespeare aficionado. And so

Seyi (40:37.868)
Yes.

Seyi (40:44.672)
Yes, there has to be.

Reza (40:59.924)
I chose this one because it's different but incredibly insightful when it comes to understanding the relationship between urban form and social interaction and creativity. So Will in the World, How Shakespeare Became Shakespeare is the name of the book, Stephen Greenblatt. Brilliant biography of William Shakespeare. He was a genius, but it provides a fascinating lens through which we can see how the physical layout of a city, in this case London, shaped his creativity.

Seyi (41:10.093)
Thank

Reza (41:30.076)
and by extension, the social and cultural dynamics of his time. And so the law that we apply here is urban form shapes social interaction. And we say the physical layout and design of cities significantly influence social interactions, community formation, and quality of life. And so I'm gonna take sort of three things from this book that talked about, where Stephen Greenblatt talks about how the city shaped Shakespeare's work.

and creativity and what he did. And so I'll start with the city of London. was a booming diversity, one of the biggest cities at its time. It was growing rapidly, both in population and physical size. It was becoming a melting pot of people, merchants, craftsmen, nobility, immigrants, and it created this incredibly vibrant social landscape. Crowded streets, markets, theaters, teeming with life, and all these different...

people, voices, and they really influence Shakespeare's characters and plots. And so Greenblatt talks about how Shakespeare's exposure to this mix of dialects, accents, social classes in the city of London enriched his dialogue and his storytelling. Characters like Falstaff from Henry V and other plays. His witty banter, earthy humor, he was just a hilarious character and I'm sure he

Seyi (42:43.148)
Hmm.

Reza (42:55.366)
encountered this character in his life in London. The cross -class interactions in the Twelfth Night would reflect the social interactions he would have witnessed daily in the city. So it's this dense, multi -layered social fabric of London that sparked his imagination. I'm getting over a cold, excuse me. Allowing him to write these plays that still resonate today because it's

covers this whole range of human experience. The second thing is that he writes about theaters and how these theaters in the city of London became social hubs. And the theater that he founded, The Globe, where many of his plays were performed in the latter half of his career, it was located in Southwark across the Thames from the city proper. And the theaters were a real social hub

and it attracted a wide variety of Londoners from the working class, groundlings, the people that stood on the floor in the pit, and the wealthy patrons who sat in the galleries above. So the physical layout of the theater itself reflected that social hierarchy, but everyone was brought together in this shared space, watching this shared experience of a play. And so all these walks of life shaped how Shakespeare's plays were performed and received.

Seyi (43:58.199)
Hmm.

Seyi (44:13.709)
Hmm.

Reza (44:20.848)
So Greenblatt writes about how the open interactive nature of the Elizabethan theater, where the actors and audience were often very physically close, it helped create this interesting environment. The intimacy, the immediacy of these performances really fed into his writing, allowing him to play with the themes of power, class, human connection. So it's an interesting aspect of what he did with that.

know, space and the plays that he wrote. And then the last thing he touches on that I think is relevant over here is the urban landscape. So the layout of London, its crowded markets, the taverns, the public squares, it really gave him a front row seat to the tensions between these different social groups. And his plays often reflect these dynamics, whether it's the civil strife in Julius Caesar on the streets of Rome or the street brawls in Romeo and Juliet.

This layout of the open squares, narrow alleys, it really created this spontaneous interactions between these social classes. And Shakespeare really captured this and he explored power, conflict, community in his plays through doing that. So I couldn't help but pick this book. I love that it takes a city, it talks about this great playwright and how it influences work. And I truly believe that cities influence us creatively. It makes us...

better, you know, I met you in Austin, I would have never met you, you know, otherwise and look, look where we are, we continue to spark creativity between the two of us, whether it's about soccer, whether it's about cities, you know, whether it's about our families. So I think it's a good one. And I highly recommend it.

Seyi (45:53.324)
Yeah.

Seyi (46:05.13)
Absolutely. I haven't read it and I'm definitely going to read it now. And what I really like about the description you just shared and the ideas you just shared is that theater has third space, honestly. When we really break it down, that's what it is. So pretty, pretty good. We hope you all pick up these books. All or any of them. I think you will be deeply enriched by

Reza (46:18.94)
Yes, it is. You're right. Good call.

Reza (46:29.768)
Yes. Yes.

Seyi (46:34.496)
reading them and with that we've come to mailbags. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Reza (46:35.465)
Yeah.

Let's do a call to action. Well, before that, I'm going to do a quick call to action. have two calls to action. One, obvious. Read one of these books. Or read all of them. But two, a better call to action. Recommend a book to us. And if it's a book that, you know, it's a good book that we like, we will send you one of these books that we talked about today. So we're encouraging you to share a book with us. We'll share a book back with you and you get a book back of your choice from one of these six. So that's the call to action today.

Seyi (46:47.661)
You

Seyi (46:52.086)
Yes.

Seyi (46:59.266)
Yes.

Seyi (47:05.6)
That is fantastic. I really like that Reza. So take that action people and make sure you send us a long list of books. will, as I'm sure you can imagine, try and plow through them as much as we can. So to that point, we come to Mailbag. Reza, we have a few today.

Reza (47:17.758)
We'd love that.

Reza (47:23.561)
Yeah.

Reza (47:28.124)
Yes. Yeah, we have a few today. So I have one from my colleague at work, my friend, Anna. She really enjoyed the last episode about construction. And she wrote that she is really interested in the future trends about 3D printing of affordable housing. And it could really offer unique and low cost option for customization of the location and preferences. And, you know, she talked about one of the companies here in Austin that is trying to

do that, Icon is one of those companies that does 3D printing. And we have an area called Community First Village where they're actually trying to build these 3D homes for the homeless that are trying to get back on their feet. So thank you, Anna, for that one. That's a good one. And then the next one is from my friend Carolyn. She's a frequent listener.

And, you know, she works with me. She's she also sort of is in this domain of construction. I was very excited to share this episode with her. And she gave me some very candid feedback that I really appreciate that she did. She said that the construction episode was not as good as the other ones and that I did not give as many examples of how to relate it to our lives in cities. And I really feel like I was so nervous about this episode that I became a talking head. You know, I.

Seyi (48:49.101)
Mm.

Reza (48:54.856)
I felt like I had to have this expertise and that's like antithetical to what we try to do in these episodes, which is we lead with curiosity and not expertise. And I fell prey to my own ego of trying to make it look like I knew what I was talking about. I don't, I've only worked in this domain three years, so I keep learning. thank you, thank you for sharing that feedback. And this is just...

Seyi (48:59.937)
Hmm

Seyi (49:04.45)
Yeah.

Reza (49:23.974)
an example of how like we're just trying to get better. any feedback that you have, whether it's good or bad, we'd love to hear. So thank you, Carolyn.

Seyi (49:31.234)
That's awesome. And I have one from a good friend of ours, Jasmine. And she goes, I like the framing that Reza laid out for understanding why construction has not advanced or innovated in the US. She would have also liked to hear examples of different ways to approach this and that she enjoyed you sharing about Deep Eddy, the project.

Reza (49:48.244)
Mm -hmm.

Seyi (49:59.98)
that it was a customized project. if you could have just jumped in a little bit more, shared some more of the cost timelines, did it have overruns? What are the examples? Are we seeing where less regulation has been successful? So we're pretty appreciative of any and every feedback. Neil Bagg here. Thanks for sending that, Jasmine.

Reza (50:28.198)
Yeah, thank you. You know, we went long on this episode, but Seyi, I had so much fun talking about these books. And so I hope all our listeners enjoy it just as much. You know, as always, we say rate and review. That's how listeners find us. Like and subscribe. And as always, you know, take a minute to share it with someone that you love, someone that you care for, someone that loves books. I think, you know, lot of us love books.

Seyi (50:34.946)
Me too.

Seyi (50:41.536)
Yes.

Reza (50:58.036)
And yeah, help us keep growing. Our listeners continue to grow. So thank you for sharing.

Seyi (51:03.362)
Yes. Thanks so much. Until next time, we'll see you soon.

Reza (51:09.716)
All right, bye.