Future Forward

Seyi Fabode (00:01.274)
Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to episode three of the Future Forward podcast. Welcome Reza.

Reza (00:11.228)
Thanks, Seyi, excited to be here.

Seyi Fabode (00:13.882)
Yeah, I can't believe it's episode three already. It's too much fun. I know.

Reza (00:17.052)
I know. We're having a blast. Like you just, like we just talked about right before the show, you know, we liken this to jazz. We have a little loose outline. We know, we know the sections that we're going to talk about and there's a little bit of improvisation, but we're just having a blast doing it and hope that everyone else is enjoying it with us and keep sending your feedback. We love hearing from y 'all.

Seyi Fabode (00:29.978)
Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (00:42.554)
Yes, we do. We do. As some of you who might be listening for the third time, no, and those of you starting with us, this is a Future Forward podcast about the future of cities. And every episode, we pick one important aspect of cities to talk about. For today, we have picked the future of built spaces. And...

As the typical format is, we'll talk about how we got here now and what we think will be the future. How does that sound, Reza?

Reza (01:22.236)
That's great. Let's jump into it. So Seyi take us back a little bit. Like where, you know, let's start with the built environment in the past. Like where did that begin? It's, I think, a story of civilization here. So let's start with that.

Seyi Fabode (01:35.29)
It is, it literally is, yeah. Some of what we've learned so far is that Egypt is one of the places where it all started. And the interesting thing about the built space, which...

always seems to baffle me and excite me when we have these conversations about cities is that a lot of the things we're seeing today started back then. Ancient Egypt, the Greek and Roman architecture always made use of some of the things we now call green. They did. It was kind of amazing. And interestingly,

Reza (02:17.724)
What? Really?

Seyi Fabode (02:23.77)
When I was researching this, I realized it shouldn't surprise me that much. And I'll share a really quick story here. I grew up in Lagos, Nigeria. My dad grew up in a village called Ijan. It was about five hours from Lagos. And he had a grand aunt that...

took care of him a lot. He was an only child. He had his parents, but he had this grand aunt who was just sort of like the matriarch of the family. And so my dad moved from the village, went to the UK, came back and built a home for his own mom, built a home for himself in the village, and also built a home for his grand aunt.

The wow thing though is my grand aunt requested that he not tear down her old hut. She had a hut, it was a thatched roof, high windows where the heat would, I guess, dissipate and the hut was made of mud so it retained heat when she needed heat.

Reza (03:33.948)
Good night.

Seyi Fabode (03:43.802)
but retained the cool weather and how she did that, kept the doors or the windows open. It was just this.

healthy space that was literally what had been getting built in those villages in ancient Egypt, Greek, and I'll put up some pictures for those who watch the YouTube videos of how the architecture, thick mud brick or stone walls, small windows overhanging roofs so that you could stand outside on what we call a porch now, you know?

Reza (03:55.516)
Yeah.

Reza (04:20.344)
Yeah, yeah.

Seyi Fabode (04:23.002)
but it's been that way all along.

Reza (04:26.3)
Interesting. So they were almost doing green building before green building became sort of a concept, but it was a way to create a habitable structure given the sort of the climate context or the area, the physical environment that they were in.

Seyi Fabode (04:47.802)
what that they were in. Yeah. And they did all this without the mechanical systems that we use today. So we replicate those making a space habitable with a track systems with no, they literally engineered out of materials, spaces that allowed them to live.

Reza (05:02.172)
Yeah.

Reza (05:11.292)
Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (05:16.666)
fulfilled lives and healthy lives for the most part.

Reza (05:20.796)
Interesting. So what changed Seyi? Clearly there was a way that we knew how to build and live in healthy spaces and using the materials and existing technology. And something seems to have shifted to where we don't quite have that.

Seyi Fabode (05:27.226)
Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (05:40.442)
that anymore and I don't know, I think a lot of this probably ties to some of the industrialization and the need to build en masse. There's no real like shift that we can point to beyond the fact that we started moving away from some of those methods and ended up with homes, sewage systems.

Reza (05:50.908)
Okay.

Reza (05:56.252)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Seyi Fabode (06:09.21)
lighting that all relied on either mass utilization of resources in cities and inability to purge the homes of those things, which led to just the great stink of England at some point. So more people in smaller built spaces where those

Reza (06:27.42)
Yes.

Seyi Fabode (06:37.402)
non -mechanical methods stopped being applicable. And so we came up with mechanical approaches to put more light in the building, expand the spaces, foundations that allowed us to build over a bigger space so we could put more people in those spaces, which meant the ventilation systems of old.

couldn't work anymore. So I don't think there was a real shift. It was more just this gradual march towards industrialization and needing to pack more people into more spaces.

Reza (07:19.292)
So it's almost like, you know, with industrialization, there was greater density with greater density. Some of these old technologies, these old sort of ways of doing it didn't quite work at the scale that it needed to in these cities that we were building. We didn't adapt. We couldn't adapt. We couldn't adapt the high window or the shaded, you know, overhang roof into a dense city that is built for, yeah, as

is built for more people being in there and all these systems that are needed, the infrastructure that we talked about last time, right? Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (07:51.93)
Yes, and, and...

Exactly, exactly. And a big part of it was for those spaces, we needed to use more resources and we relied a lot on fossil fuels and consequently burning whatever energy source we needed to burn. In some cases, oil, because we had oil lamps at some point, we had stoves that we powered with oil.

Reza (08:05.276)
Mm.

Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (08:24.73)
And we'll have to fast forward a little bit here because we know a bunch of periods between early civilizations and the early 1900s and then about 1970 when we started to say, hey, we're damaging the planet.

and the oil embargo and this is around when the green building movement really start to kick in again. In the early 1970s the first earth day which was in a wide way tied to

Reza (08:58.3)
Interesting.

Seyi Fabode (09:07.482)
a lot of these other environmental movements that made us start to look at the spaces we lived in because we had one of the great fires that was related to oil and water in the Cuyahoga River here in the US. We had a lot of fossil fuel, OPEC related problems across the world. And even as these vast systems were starting to, quote unquote, break,

Reza (09:21.532)
Hmm. Hmm. Yeah.

Reza (09:36.796)
Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (09:37.402)
First thing we turned back to was, man, our spaces aren't serving us well anymore, which is the whole point of the green building movement. And that was an offshoot of some of these bigger macro systemic problems that we were really starting to worry about.

Reza (09:44.988)
Yeah.

Reza (09:52.924)
Got it.

Reza (09:56.988)
Interesting. So it took that shock to make that shift. I'm curious to hear a little bit about green building. You know, I used to work at an energy efficiency company. And so pretty familiar with all this, but like, you know, take us into this sort of green building, green building standards and some of these things that came about.

Seyi Fabode (10:19.066)
Yeah, so the 1970s is really when we started to get all green. It's maybe all green again. And if I remember correctly, some of the work of the building research establishment and environmental assessment method, which was this, hey, how do we?

design our offices to be habitable spaces back to the office. Remember the office was when we started to put people in from the first episode and start to put people a lot of people in in these standardized spaces. That work started in the 1980s but really culminated in laws and regulations starting to kick in in 1990.

Reza (10:48.764)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Seyi Fabode (11:14.298)
And then the US Green Building Council sort of took some of the work from the BREAM approach. And we ended up with the leadership in energy and environmental design, the LEED standard we all now know, which came really, the regulations came in in 1998. And then...

in the 2000s is when California always sort of leaps ahead when it comes to things like this. And they put up the Cal Green, California Green Building Standards Code, which is when we started to codify this whole, this is how we build sustainable spaces, homes for people to live healthy, fulfilled lives. But there was a lot that was not working.

with those approaches back then that we can dive into. But the codification of this green building idea was sort of between 1990 and the early 2000s.

Reza (12:16.732)
Yeah.

Reza (12:25.916)
Interesting. And so, yeah, I'm curious to hear a little bit more about these standards because I have this impression that the standards somewhat forgot the humans at the center of them. And this is where I feel that you depersonalize or dehumanize

you know, a physical space by creating standards that have to be followed for reasons that the builder doesn't quite understand. They're like, they don't feel like any of that is motivating them to build for humans. It's just motivating them to, I don't know, get some incentive or some, you know, lead bronze badge or silver badge or what have you. So it's a, so talk a little bit about this, you know, about these standards and I'm going to poke some holes as you do it.

Seyi Fabode (13:23.322)
Yeah, no, no, no. So you're highlighting a really big problem with when we start to try to standardize and incentivize.

Seyi Fabode (13:41.722)
the development of needs infrastructure or cater to people in cities. In this case, it's in built spaces, but you are correct. A lot of the standards, even LEED standards and some of the BREAM standards didn't factor in.

some of the foundational requirements that we're now starting to pay a little bit more attention to under this healthy building approach. And the healthy building approach is really, it comes out of the Chan Policy Center from Harvard and a few things that we missed with things like the Green Standard. So I'll use an example.

The LEED standard talked about sustainable use of water in buildings, but not much was mentioned about the quality of the water, for example. Like, who does that? Yeah, it's a big miss, but when you're thinking about the inputs, the sustainable utilization of the inputs and the outputs, which is buildings, you miss the nuance of...

Reza (14:48.028)
That's a big miss.

Seyi Fabode (15:05.114)
the human experience in those buildings is maybe the point you're making here.

Reza (15:09.02)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, I'll sort of pull in a thread from my prior experience of working at a company that helped run energy efficiency programs for utilities. And so, some of this was driven by these green standards. Some of it was driven by utilities wanting to sort of reduce energy use.

But the incentives were all wrong. The reason for doing these types of energy efficiency things weren't about the humans. It was more about utilities trying to please their regulators and doing these energy efficiency programs, which kind of contravened their key goals, which is like, we know how to generate energy. We don't know how to save energy. So it's just like...

Seyi Fabode (15:50.97)
Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (16:02.518)
You

Reza (16:04.028)
it was opposed, so it was constantly having to go to regulators to prove that they were doing something with energy efficiency, while at the same time, all they knew how to do was generate power. And so you end up with situations where, you know, if you're following standards in these buildings, some of it is done for the wrong reason. And I think this is an example of how, you know, misaligned incentives can, you know, lead to these unintended consequences of

Seyi Fabode (16:10.138)
Yes.

Seyi Fabode (16:23.738)
Absolutely.

Reza (16:32.892)
you know, not actually getting what we wanted out of a, you know, like this built environment that is a healthy space, like, you know, what your grandmother had, because the incentives were aligned there about, you know, creating a space. Yeah. Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (16:43.53)
Yeah, clearly, clearly and again.

I'm not knocking, I 100 % agree with you Reza. I'm not knocking that we tried to codify or standardize some approaches to making these built spaces work. What we lost, which you always, I love that you always help pull this out in our conversations. What we lost was the fact that at the end of the day, this was really about the people in those spaces.

And it's why I like the healthy buildings approach. And there's a book, I believe the Joseph Allen is the professor at Harvard who's done a lot of the work here. And the approach just points to nine foundations.

nine foundations for what makes a healthy building and I'll list them off here. Good ventilation so humidity and ventilation in a space. The lighting in the space and the views that the people in the space get to experience because you don't want to it is not a healthy building if you're sitting in front of a window that is facing a wall. That is not a healthy space nor

in the space is a big part of it. Water quality which was missed in the old standards. Safety and security. Dusts and pests. I mean the absence of dust and pests. Moisture in the space.

Reza (18:18.012)
Yeah. Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (18:33.626)
thermal health, A, is it too cold, is it too hot, and finally, the quality of the air in the space. So that's sort of the nine foundations of a healthy building, and they touch on things that were missed in many of the standards that we'd had before. Yeah.

Reza (18:51.74)
Interesting. And so do you think that, so this is really interesting because like I'll just pull one thread out of there. It seemed like when we were going through COVID, we were reminded of healthy spaces, you know, inside. I remember like my office writing to us and saying, Hey, we're doing all these things to ensure that we have ventilation and things like that. So that became very prominent.

Seyi Fabode (19:07.674)
Yes.

Reza (19:21.244)
like focused on. I haven't heard the same focus since obviously not because we're not like in the midst of a pandemic but I'm curious like you know given these standards like how are they being adopted or evangelized? Are we like what's the path here?

Seyi Fabode (19:23.738)
Yes.

unfortunately yeah

Seyi Fabode (19:43.994)
Yeah, so I'm an optimistic realist. And the optimist side of me believes that the momentum that was gained, because so I mentioned the healthy building movement sort of started around 2017. And it was really accelerated.

Reza (20:02.844)
Hmm.

Seyi Fabode (20:07.13)
during COVID because you're correct. A lot of the considerations, hey, what is the air quality in here? Because remember during COVID, we had all these ideas about how the virus was being spread. Some of them wrong, some of them correct, but there was no doubt that air quality.

Reza (20:08.828)
Interesting. Yeah.

Reza (20:23.1)
Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (20:31.514)
or air, the air we breathe was a method of transmission. Nobody doubted that. So I actually distinctly remember, I don't know if it was during COVID or right after the.

Reza (20:36.764)
Okay.

Seyi Fabode (20:47.514)
heavy days of COVID. Joseph Allen ended up on 60 Minutes, the show, the TV show that seems to announce a new thing, trend, person, or idea. And he was on there talking about these nine things. And how...

Reza (20:59.292)
Yeah. Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (21:08.762)
excited it was about the fact that we now have no choice but to pay attention to the collective list of foundational healthy building needs.

Reza (21:20.124)
Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (21:28.634)
I go to the office a few times a week and I like to think the office space, which is a new one, the one I'm in, was built since COVID and I don't know. I don't know if we've...

we've paid as much attention, not in that space particularly, but a few office buildings around where my office is. And it's almost like we just went right back to what we were doing before Reza, which I'd love to hear it. I love to hear it, yeah.

Reza (22:00.444)
Why do you think? I have a theory. Yeah. Yeah. I think that like, you know, in my day job and the work that I do, I'm, you know, software in the construction domain. And the big challenge in construction is you have these different stakeholders that have different interests. You have the owner or developer of that property. You have the general contractor that's responsible for

the contract and building it and you have trades that are specialty and, you know, doing the specific things like the mechanical system, the electrical, the plumbing, you know, the, you know, the, on the low steel, et cetera. And all of them are bound together by contract and they're all different. so every project. Construction project is what you can say new because it's not been built before.

Seyi Fabode (22:56.762)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Reza (22:59.836)
because it's a new location, it's a new configuration, it's a new design. Very few things are exactly the same in construction. And so there isn't an incentive to, like the designer who works for the owner, and I forgot to mention them, that's the fourth stakeholder here, the designer and engineer, they might have a desire to create a healthy space, but...

Seyi Fabode (23:08.474)
in construction. Yes, yes.

Seyi Fabode (23:21.434)
Mm -hmm.

Seyi Fabode (23:27.162)
Mm.

Reza (23:27.932)
for the owner, it might be too expensive to apply those standards. For the general contractor, it might be new ways of building that add risk to the project that they don't want to take on because it's a special type of building process or form that they haven't done before creates too much risk and they don't want to take that risk. And so they're not aligned in thinking about a healthy space together.

Seyi Fabode (23:30.01)
Mmm. Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (23:38.938)
Mm. Mm.

Reza (23:56.828)
no matter what the architect would want to do. And unless you have an owner that really believes in it and cares about it and wants to spend the money or put that in the contract for the contractor to actually go and do. So you don't get the result of these standards. And the LEED standard is an example of like these were promulgated but didn't realize what you would hope.

Seyi Fabode (23:56.858)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (24:24.986)
Potential yeah, yeah

Reza (24:25.852)
They forgot the human and I believe the, you know, the, the stakeholder or the, the one that cares the most about the humans are the architects, but they have the least power in this whole situation.

Seyi Fabode (24:36.794)
Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (24:40.506)
It is true. It is true. I agree. And I think some of the approaches that need to, and I'll jump into the future, 100 % agree with you and jump into the future. Because one of the things that's starting to get spoken about a little bit more is,

Reza (24:52.732)
Yeah. Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (25:02.458)
I'll say an improvement of the LEED standard that is called the WELL standard. And the idea with the WELL standard is let us almost like bring in the people who will dwell in those spaces into the number of stakeholders that you've just mentioned. So the four stakeholders, the WELL standard is attempting to put...

the people that the people you always mentioned and you care about as a fifth stakeholder, because they will be the ones who will use the space post construction, post FID, post deployment and well, in renewable energy construction projects, we call it FID, which is, but.

Reza (25:33.052)
Interesting. Yeah.

Reza (25:41.628)
Yes. Yes.

Seyi Fabode (25:58.586)
I'm using an acronym and I shouldn't. So I'll put the full meaning in the show notes as we've been instructed after this. But I'm excited about the WELL standard. That's really the point for me because it is being acknowledged and adapted by some of the companies that are trying to build.

Reza (26:01.276)
Hehehe.

Seyi Fabode (26:25.722)
spaces with the individual in mind sustainably as well.

Reza (26:32.476)
And so it's great that there's this standard. And I love that the person, the people that will be in that building are the center of it. How do you think that will become more accepted and adopted?

Do you know, you know always the optimist? optimistic realist so So where do you see? Like what what what's the benefit to? These stakeholders to apply that maybe I should ask it that way

Seyi Fabode (26:59.978)
Yeah. I'm the optimist.

Seyi Fabode (27:16.442)
Yeah, so no, no, it's a good way to frame it. And if I take what you just shared about the stakeholders and what they care about and what they're paying attention to, fundamentally, there's this consideration for how much will it cost and how much will I make? And can that delta between those two numbers make sense for me to do this as a business?

Reza (27:43.932)
Yeah. Yes.

Seyi Fabode (27:44.282)
That's, I think, the consideration that stops some of these additional foundational needs of the dwellers being taken into consideration. The way I see the world standard becoming a standard is in...

Reza (27:49.084)
Yes.

Seyi Fabode (28:06.874)
how some of these innovative new companies are using technology, new materials, and a recognition of the adaptable needs or the adaptable nature of how we live in these spaces to implement the world standard. So I'll use an example. There's a company called Bumblebee Spaces and

It is small spaces that are configured and modular and it shifts and changes depending on the need of the individual living in the space without losing the air quality, ventilation requirements, temperature requirements. They factor all these things even as the space shifts and changes.

to allow you to either work, play, or live in some of these spaces. So that's one example. Another example that I see is getting a lot more traction is this company that you've probably heard of here in Austin. It is ICON. They 3D print the homes. And I once...

Reza (29:26.684)
Yes. Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (29:31.098)
listened in on a webinar, a small sort of private webinar that the founder of ICON came to speak on. And he used all the right words. He that it's about spaces for people to live healthy, fulfilled lives. And on their side.

Reza (29:53.404)
Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (29:56.282)
They are taking on the work of making sure the materials, the cost, allow them to build sustainably, both for the planet.

but also as a business concern. So I do think we're hitting a point where we don't have enough homes, for example. We have to adapt the offices to a certain extent as we engage with companies in our cities, like Bumblebee spaces that can be used to adapt these offices that we were saying are empty. And Icon is building residential homes, factoring all these in.

Reza (30:09.468)
Yeah.

Reza (30:31.356)
Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (30:37.338)
we start to shift the conversation a little bit from just standards for standards sake.

Reza (30:40.816)
Interesting. Yeah, interesting. So it's almost to sort of tie it back to your grandmother. Like there was a rudimentary technology for how to build that had the human at the center of the space. We kind of lost that story for all these years. And now we're applying our technology today, whether it's 3D printing or digital twins and modeling.

Seyi Fabode (30:53.498)
Yep.

Seyi Fabode (30:57.21)
Yep.

Seyi Fabode (31:09.018)
sensors for adapting, yeah.

Reza (31:10.716)
sensors, yeah, all of that is being applied to bring the human back into it, but at the scale that we're trying to continue to build cities. So we went through this phase of unhealthy type of building and we're trying to swing into this healthier remembering, you know, all these old things that we used to do, but with new technology applied to it, which is

Seyi Fabode (31:38.074)
Absolutely.

Reza (31:39.42)
Which is like exactly what this show is about, right? You know, how can technology...

Seyi Fabode (31:41.722)
Literally.

Reza (31:49.852)
help us with the challenges that we face in cities and the angle that I'm always trying to bring. You're always trying to bring that optimistic view of the future and I'm always trying to bring what happened historically and how is the human still at the center of it. And it seems we have found a pattern, a new way that could allow for those things to be together. Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (32:03.898)
The learnings. Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (32:15.29)
I agree, I agree. It's because the, and what you're pointing out is that we as humans never really, our needs never really change.

Reza (32:28.572)
Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (32:28.794)
What we need to keep at the front of our minds is how can we use the technology, new, advanced, to continue to meet those needs and not just lose or ignore the needs of people in cities at the altar of, this technology will make us a lot more money today, for example. So yeah. Yeah.

Reza (32:46.3)
Yeah.

Reza (32:52.06)
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great, Seyi. This is a really good discussion.

Seyi Fabode (32:59.514)
Same, I agree and I love your perspective of making sure community is always at the centre because we never need, we shouldn't forget that and what is possible in the future. Yeah.

Reza (33:06.332)
Yes.

Reza (33:12.252)
Yeah, which is what you do a great job of bringing in.

Seyi Fabode (33:16.346)
That's awesome. Do we have any mailbag comments this week, Reza?

Reza (33:17.788)
Yeah.

Reza (33:22.832)
Well, so don't have a mail back comment, but I have a piece of learning that I wanted to bring back to the show. You know, since we talked last week, you know, about infrastructure and decentralization, disaggregation, sort of going out from sort of the centralized notions of infrastructure that we have. And I pushed back on, you know, whether that's good and whether that's the right thing, would it actually work? And

And, you know, synchronicity this past week, Ben Thompson, you know, who has the Stratechary newsletter, great tech analyst, he interviewed Casey Handler. I'm not sure if I'm saying his name right. Casey Handmer of Terraform Industries. And Terraform Industries is a, what they're building is they're trying to build

a decentralized way of creating power in a carbon neutral way. So they use solar power to turn water through a chemical process into methane or natural gas. So you're basically, instead of sort of drilling a hole in the ground and bringing up natural gas, you can use solar power to create natural gas in a carbon neutral way.

and do it using two, you know, this equipment all sits in two shipping containers. So it could be next to the place that needs that power. So say next to a manufacturing plant or a data center or a, you know, I don't know, a hospital, a community, whatever. And I thought that that was interesting. You know, I'm not an expert on, you know,

Seyi Fabode (35:00.858)
data center, yeah.

Seyi Fabode (35:06.714)
hospital. Yeah. Yeah.

Reza (35:16.732)
the chemical processes that they use or the way that they do it. But it's an example of new thinking on ways to create infrastructure that is decentralized. That's pretty unique. Like that's, you know, that's different. and he also on this podcast talked a lot about solar power and the creation of batteries and how the costs of solar power are going down to where in a certain amount of years, solar power will be the cheapest form of energy and battery.

Seyi Fabode (35:29.274)
Mm -hmm.

Seyi Fabode (35:44.346)
Yeah.

Reza (35:45.692)
chemistry and technology will also become cheap. And this is a great thing, Seyi, because you talk about this all the time, sort of the anti -fragile nature of if you have batteries on the grid, you create resilience because they're the fastest way to avoid sort of blackout situations faster than any of those peaker power, peaker natural gas power plants.

Seyi Fabode (36:01.53)
Yes.

Seyi Fabode (36:06.202)
And now, to juice.

Seyi Fabode (36:10.586)
Yep. Yep.

Reza (36:13.564)
And so it was a fascinating learning that I wanted to share with our audience and bring it back.

Seyi Fabode (36:19.738)
with the audience. I really think this leads us to dive in deeper into energy in our next episode. What do you think Reza? Let's do that. Yeah.

Reza (36:27.644)
Ha ha!

Cool, I'd love to. I think this is, yeah, it's a thread that we need to pull. We need this sort of infrastructure. We sort of talked about it broadly, but I feel like we need to get into energy. This is such a huge, huge topic and this little piece of learning kind of inspired me. And I think you and I talked about it and you're like, you were thinking about energy and I was thinking about this thing. And so we have a great topic for next time. Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (36:41.146)
Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (36:52.474)
It needs to happen. So that will be the next episode, which will get to you our listeners. As always, please reach out, share your comments, share your feedback, share any new knowledge you might have that informs us and improves the quality of what we deliver to you. But I'll say thank you Reza until next time.

Reza (37:15.772)
Yeah.

Reza (37:19.228)
Yeah, thank you, Seyi. Love that we're learning, love that our audience is learning with us. I hope they can share with us so that we learn with them. Excited for what we're doing with our community of Future Forward listeners. And until next time, we'll say goodbye.

Seyi Fabode (37:33.21)
Yes.

Seyi Fabode (37:38.298)
Bye. Thank you.