Future Forward

Seyi (00:01)
Hello, hello, hello, Reza, how are you?

Reza (00:03)
Good Seyi how are you doing?

Seyi (00:05)
I am doing very well today. It is another episode of Future Forward.

Reza (00:10)
Yeah, this one is really interesting, Seyi. I know you're gonna give an introduction, but what we're doing today is called a future of connection and communities. there's one thing that I love about you, Seyi which is the way that you put two ideas together that actually seem unrelated, but actually are related. And folks are gonna get a taste of this once we get into the program. But before we do that...

Before we jump into the podcast, let's tell our new listeners what Future Forward is about. Future Forward is a conversation that Shae and I have been having for many years where we have been talking about cities. And what we're doing over here is talking about cities and communities, how they could be more sustainable, how can we make our communities more thriving by bringing in some historical context.

talking about the present day and then providing some strategic foresight for the future. We always approach this from a place of curiosity. We're not experts. We're learning as we are sharing this with you. yeah, welcome back to our frequent listeners as well. Just excited to get into this one, Shay.

Seyi (01:34)
Fantastic. Yeah. Thank you so much, Reza. And we'll dive right in. The episode today is about the future of connection and communities in cities. And you will, listeners, understand why these two things are really connected for us. So we picked this topic because it represents both the tools and the technology, but also the community.

in our communications in cities. And what do I mean by this? That the more you engage and communicate and connect in your city, the more you either feel a sense of belonging to a group or a place, in this case, your city, or you don't. And so as we dive through, keep at the back of your mind that even as we talk about technologies and tools, the underlying point here is that

we are connecting in our cities. So we'll do what we typically do. We'll start from the historical context. And the idea here is that in the past, ancient civilizations developed sophisticated systems for communication. We think we're the most sophisticated generation, but the foundation of all we do, the...

Alphabets we use, the approaches we use were developed in ancient times. And the goal back then as it still is now was to convey messages over distance and time. The Sumerians created cuneiform where they imprinted wedge shaped marks on clay tablets. We've seen these in some of these

Indiana Jones movies, for example, where they're chasing stuff, see the communication methods there. And then the Egyptians used hieroglyphics where they put it on papyrus. Again, when we think about the past and how information was communicated, these were some of the more

recognizable forms by the ancient civilizations. And the point there was to communicate something about either your culture, share information with the people that were within your city or your community. But I would really suggest that the most important form of communication in the past

Reza (04:05)
Mm-hmm.

Seyi (04:29)
was the information shared in face-to-face interactions. That happened a lot more. You had the agoras where people would come together, engage and communicate and connect as part of a local community. We had the town squares where information was shared by whoever was in charge.

Reza (04:34)
Mm-hmm.

Seyi (04:58)
with the people in the city or the community. And interestingly, some of these town squares allowed the individuals who lived in these cities to communicate back to their leaders as well by giving them opportunities to share in the town square. a really important form of communication and connectivity that I was doing the research found was

Reza (05:12)
Mm-hmm.

Seyi (05:28)
the communication that happened in markets where trade happened. It was trade, but it was also just these micro interactions that increased the connectivity of people to the place they were in. And these interactions, we'll dive into it a little bit more because it's that connection that comes from the face-to-face communications that we saw back in those times.

Reza (05:32)
Amen.

Seyi (05:59)
That being said, we also had long distance communication. You didn't only communicate with the people who were within your local community, even as you engage with them the most. And the long distance communication methods that were in the past were fantastic as I was researching. So we had heliographs used reflecting sunlight with

coded messages over vast distances. I'll put a picture of how this was done, if possible for those who watch on YouTube. And back then we also had optical telegraphs or semaphore lines, which utilized movable shutters on outposts to relay messages along a chain of stations of these semaphore lines. It's fascinating. We don't use those anymore.

But interestingly, the packet approach to transferring information across the internet came from some of these approaches. And then we also had where fire signals were used, especially in ancient China, where a network of signaling towers could transmit basic information up to 500 miles in just mere hours.

Reza (07:06)
One.

Seyi (07:25)
While we think of these times as ancient, they had sophisticated approaches. What is complex technological approaches to communicate over long distances? But my take and our view is that the most important communication that led to connectivity in these cities was through the face-to-face interactions that happened back then.

Reza (07:53)
Yeah, that's a fantastic introduction. It's fascinating to sort of think about how communication has been a fundamental part of human nature all through time. And humans have increasingly sought new ways of communicating to, you know, to do all the things that we do as humans. And so, you know, two threads that I, you know, that I find really interesting, which is

The shape of cities helped with those interactions, whether they were squares or those micro interactions, because that was a way that you increase the breadth of communication in that area, as opposed to just being at your house and interacting with your neighbors. You go into a market or where trade occurs, the market is the place where you interact with others in your community and where traders come in from other places and you hear about things from other places. And so you have a more richer

set of interactions that makes the city more than what it is, which is these. So there's micro interactions, super critical. And I think we will talk more about that as we get through the episode. So I like how you're sort of grounding it in that. The second thing that I find really interesting is how you describe this communication technology as sort of trying to bridge space and time. Like we wanted to find ways of

Seyi (09:17)
Mm-hmm.

Reza (09:20)
sending communication over long distances to reduce the time that it would take to do it. And how you described like some of these older technologies are basically been advanced, like using packets to communicate things happens on the internet as well. So I love how all these things actually then foretell where we were going because of the fundamental nature of humans to.

being, you know, to want to communicate. And how, you know, so I'm curious to hear like, where have we gotten today? Because I see some trade-offs that have occurred as we've tried to advance those technologies. And the one last thing before we jump into it, this has been kind of like the fundamental tension between the two of us that we've gone through every episode where, you know, you'll talk about technology and I'll talk about communities. And this this episode brings that all together. So.

Seyi (09:50)
Yeah.

Reza (10:17)
I can't wait for us to jump into the next part.

Seyi (10:19)
It does, it does. And you are so correct because it will come as no surprise to anyone listening to this podcast that today we have essentially handed over the connectivity to technology. And I mean that both literally and metaphorically, we still have that innate desire to communicate. I love that you also ground us in that.

And the approaches we use are based on just that fundamental need. Orally, visually, written, communication. We've now pretty much handed it over to technologies as a medium. I am not saying it is all bad. Some of our listeners, almost every one of our listeners is listening to us on a technological device that you probably wouldn't have been able to hear this if you did not have. So...

As I share what I am about to share, note that I am not saying technology is inherently bad. It is that we have become more impersonal in how we communicate and consequently, we've lost the connectivity, even in the cities where we are. And so we use social media, we use messaging apps, we all resorted to Zoom and video.

during the pandemic to shorten that space and time point that you made. And we have fewer face-to-face engagements, even with the people that we are close to in our cities. I'll use an example here because I think it'll...

tied back to that micro interactions point we made and we'll dive into that a little bit more shortly. I will use two quick examples. The grocery store closest to our home here, when we first moved here just shy of 10 years ago now had 24 people manning checkout points, a bagger and a cashier.

Reza (12:38)
Mm-hmm.

Seyi (12:43)
with the frequency you would go to the grocery store, I would go to the grocery store. I got to interact with some of those cashiers. And I'm not saying I knew them, but we sort of knew each other. There was an acknowledgement of the fact we were both part of this community, which was a small community in the big city. Now, fast forward that.

Reza (13:05)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Seyi (13:13)
supermarket that grocery store now has only two manned checkout points with a bagger and a cashier to handle whoever chooses to go into the line. The store has enforced by making it really difficult to stand in a long line waiting for cashier. The store has enforced

you go into a self checkout line. They have, I believe, eight self checkout lines with only one person to help should you have any issues there. What do I mean? What am I getting at here? We have lost the micro interactions that led to connectivity in that grocery store. One example, the second one is Starbucks. You and I,

I've consistently mentioned on this that Starbucks is sort of at the center of us having these conversations every Friday over several years. And the one closest to me, now they've now changed how they approach things because you had tons of people ordering through the app and not even interacting with the Starbucks baristas who

Reza (14:36)
Hmm.

Seyi (14:41)
where as much making you your coffee as it is they were engaging in this community building micro interaction thing we talk about again. When you came into the store stood in front of them, they would ask about my kids and stuff like that. Now they're so harried by all the people's orders that are being made through the app. They can't really spend as much time. And there's again,

Reza (15:01)
Mm.

Seyi (15:10)
slightly, I go to the Starbucks less because I do not, the smile I got from one of the baristas every morning when I went to get my drink was part of how I felt like I was a part of the fabric of this community. And so I'll pause with those two examples, but the technological interface between in those two examples, I believe has

Reza (15:15)
Mm-hmm.

Seyi (15:40)
remove the connectivity. And that is a shame because that was a strong way to build the bonds that people did back then, even as they had some really cool technology too.

Reza (15:55)
Yeah, I mean that's the unintended consequences of like wanting to become more efficient or thinking that technology makes things better. mean, yes, for Starbucks it, you you have this super easy online way of ordering, but you're not interacting. Like you've given up the third space by making it a complete transaction where there's no interaction at all.

Seyi (16:16)
Yes.

Yeah,

yeah.

Reza (16:22)
and the grocery store, is, like you said, sort of the heart of a community often because you go there two, three, a couple times a week, once a week on your routine. And yes, you do know those people. They're not very loose ties, but you see a familiar face, you're happy to see them, you'll smile, you'll say hi, hey, how's the weather, just small talk, but it makes it a more human interaction.

Seyi (16:29)
times a week yeah yeah

Yeah.

Reza (16:48)
And there are times where I'm like, man, I just want to go through the self checkout because there's just like a long line because they have to check out people and I'm going to the self checkout, but it's not the same. It's like an emptier experience. And so that's, yes, this unintended consequence that we face.

Seyi (16:57)
Yeah, sadly.

It is, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I, an additional thing, I'll even use one last example. There was a time when the postman would drop your stuff, you know, and say hello. You have this, this, this recurring joke that you saw in movies, TV shows, comic books of the postman being chased by your dog. Now the Amazon person just drops your package, takes a picture and you get a ping that

there's a package at your door. That just, that ping really hurts me, honestly. But the tie-in to this is that unfortunately, some of us are in the privileged position of being able to utilize these technologies to communicate with people who are close to us, but also people who are far away from us because

Reza (17:45)
Yeah.

Seyi (18:06)
Some of us have moved far away. So yes, there is value in that, but you have communities where the technology is not available to them. In some cities in the US, you have between 10 to 20 % of the residents of that city who do not have internet access and consequently cannot make an order that gets delivered to their home.

Reza (18:17)
Hmm.

Seyi (18:36)
online and public sentiment has sort of shifted to where governments are now and the IRA, Affordable Care Act and things of that nature. Some of the bills they championed were focused on getting broadband to as many people as possible.

especially in these underserved communities. And the effect of not having it was huge during the pandemic. Sadly, they felt the most pain from not having access. lower income communities, underserved communities, governments are now focusing on making communication and connectivity, technical connectivity in this sense, in the form of the internet and the web.

Reza (19:13)
Yes. Yeah.

Seyi (19:33)
available in these communities. Publicly owned broadband networks are now increasing in the US with 47 new networks in 2021, which supplement the existing 400 networks serving about 600 communities in places like Knoxville, Tennessee, where over 200,000 households are being brought on to

networks that are being built by the government of those cities to bridge that gap and that divide. And there were some legal barriers, but cities like Chattanooga, Tennessee, Lafayette, Louisiana have just plowed ahead with getting broadband access through some innovative approaches to these communities and just remove the barriers and the gaps.

shorting the gaps between the haves and the have-nots when it comes to technology and consequently connectivity in our cities.

Reza (20:42)
Yeah, I think that's a really great point that you're bringing up that even in the midst of this trade off of technology, you know, reducing those micro interactions, there are still critical needs for communities to have connectivity, to have connection through technology, because a lot of our interactions and transactions do occur digitally. And so this is no different than

Seyi (21:01)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Reza (21:11)
Also, ancient times, you can think back to Venice when they created ghettos for the Jews or the Moors. They designed cities to keep them out. And so, you know, the good news is what, you know, some of these policies are doing is to try to bring those communities in so that they are connected, even though they're in places like through this better connectivity infrastructure. And it will, you know, give them a

Seyi (21:19)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Reza (21:40)
a place to participate in the digital world that we live today. So even in the midst of the challenge, it's important for us to have this type of connectivity. And that's why this like this tension between connection and technology, it becomes a fraught one. So I think the next thing that you're going to talk about is a little bit about why is it

Seyi (21:50)
Yeah.

It does, yeah.

Reza (22:09)
Why is there this trade-off?

Seyi (22:12)
Yeah, so it's an interesting one. This is one that came about, I'll give a hat tip to Erin Grossi, a friend who questioned some of these ideas, this tension that always seems to show up. And I leaned into the micro interactions and weak ties as a critical element of why I think

the US, especially the US and probably a lot of the countries as well, why we're struggling with things like loneliness and just inequality and just this big divide in our cities. And it boils down to this. In this area of sociology called micro sociology,

It's the study of everyday human social interactions and behaviors at the smallest scale.

It focuses on face-to-face encounters, personal relationships, small group dynamics, and it examines how people create meaning and social order through their daily interactions.

hold that because it's key. It really also helps us self-modulate, essentially. We manage the impressions, we follow unwritten social rules, we construct our identities as people and participate in group dynamics in micro-interactions. So the fewer micro-interactions you have,

the less clarity you have about what is the impression I am leaving with this person who is my neighbor. What are the social rules here? Am I allowed to just scream at someone in public? Maybe not, because it is a social but unspoken rule that I should behave a certain way. The identity I construct as a result of these micro-interactions

Reza (24:25)
Yes. Yes.

Seyi (24:36)
whether we like it or not, add to the identities we hold on to as we participate within the groups, local groups and communities. So this matters is my point. This need for us to continue to have micro interactions and develop with ties and not let technology disintermediate this.

And I'll do a quick sort of nerd break here. One of the big forward leaps for this idea of micro-interactions came through the research of Erwin Goffman, 1950s and 1960s. And it was this paper that he released called The Presentation of Self in Everyday Life, which came out in 1959.

You should go read it if you get a chance, it's online. And it revolutionized how we think about face-to-face interactions. Everyone was focused on these micro sociological trends, and he really brought it to the fore that those weak ties and quick conversations you have at the grocery store, in a third space, matter.

a lot. And I think we've reached a point where we've lost it a little bit more because we don't pay attention as much. We just want to communicate as quickly as we can or at the altar of efficiency. And I'll again, encourage our listeners to go read up on this a little bit and give a hard tip to Erin Grossi again, because she now told me about

a modern day version of Ving Goffman and it's someone called Saskia Sassen who is doing a lot of work on just the divides that we're experiencing through the loss of this micro interactions, not just in our cities, but as global cities and the digital cities, how they're different from physical cities and the fabric we've lost.

I'll pause there because I can imagine you have some comments and you also share the laws with us Reza.

Reza (27:04)
Yeah, so my takeaway from that is the loss of these micro-interactions is probably causing the partisan divides that we have because we actually don't interact with all types of people. We interact within our bubbles digitally and then very limited interactions outside in our homes. And so our technology has created bubbles or we remain in those bubbles to where we're not seeing things

Seyi (27:15)
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Yep.

Reza (27:34)
in the town square where everyone is. Our digital squares aren't common places for interaction. They happen to, the algorithm takes us to things that engage us as opposed to expand us. And so, we do have a couple laws that really apply very well over here from our 21 laws of cities. The first one being social infrastructure.

Seyi (27:35)
Yes. Yes.

Yes. Yes.

Reza (28:02)
is as crucial as physical infrastructure. And it's because when we invest in social infrastructure, like schools and libraries, community centers, health care facilities, these are places where those micro interactions can occur. And it's just as important as the physical infrastructure for the thriving community part of a city. And this...

law comes from the research done by Kleinberg in 2018, who demonstrated the importance of social infrastructure in his book, Palaces for the People. And when you neglect it, as he writes in his book, it leads to reduced quality of life, decreased community resilience, increased social isolation. You just brought all those points up as we led our way to this part of the podcast. The second law that we've also touched on,

which is digital inclusion ensures equal opportunity. like that public broadband network example that you gave is an example of this, like equitable access to digital infrastructure and skills is essential for the full participation in modern life. So those 10 to 20 % of people that aren't included can't participate in our modern world that we have. And this research is from Karagliou and others in 2011 that emphasize the importance of this digital inclusion.

in their work on smart cities. And the consequence, again, you brought this up, it leads to, it exacerbates the existing inequalities, it limits access to education, like you mentioned, during the pandemic, it really, really magnified that. Job opportunities, public services, because a lot of public services are now accessed through digital means. So it's, these two laws, I think it really highlight

why we need connection and community, both technological connection as well as the human connection.

Seyi (30:03)
Fantastic. Thank you for sharing those Reza. I strongly believe that the future, which we'll touch on shortly, have to center on ensuring those two laws are met, honestly. And I've given it away. What do we have in mind for the future? I really do think it centers around those two things.

Reza (30:23)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Seyi (30:32)
And I can share those now with the idea here being that first we need to balance both the focus on digital and physical social infrastructure as we build out there. these billions of dollars of proposed spend to increase

the broadband access companies are spending more to make their service businesses more efficient and consequently removing people. I strongly believe that the future of our cities to increase connection in our communities will have to see us spend as much, if not more, on the social part. And what does this mean? I think

Reza (31:25)
Yeah.

Seyi (31:30)
It is, we've touched on a bunch of these in previous episodes. We have to invest more money in third spaces, places where we can engage, interact, create weak ties and have more micro interactions. We have to invest in more walkable cities. We mentioned the 15 minute city in the last episode and I'm getting to a point where I think we'll have to do an episode on 15 minute city.

But I strongly believe that as much as we make our cities walkable with all the services, critical services in proximity to where we live, we will need to pay attention to increasing the social interactions, the micro interactions that happen by building and investing in those. So I'll pause there with that one before I share the second one, but many thoughts.

Reza (32:30)
Yeah, absolutely. third space is, I think I agree it'd be really interesting to talk about the 15 minute city. And I'm actually really curious about what the trade-offs would be, like why do people fear it and what can it actually happen in the cities that we live in. But yeah, I think.

Yeah, let's go to the second one. I'm curious to hear.

Seyi (33:01)
Yeah, so the second one is really mainly tied to the first one. The idea here being that we as much as possible need to I realize I'm pausing here as a and I'll take this part out because I realize it's we actually have one. I just saw that we have one and it's that it's that balance between the physical and the digital and the social. So

we'll mark this point and then remove the the parameter. not sure why I said we have to, but anyway, yeah. That's the future. had importance of weak ties. Yeah, no, I think we covered it. We covered it, yeah. And so we can just

Do the...

Reza (34:05)
Yeah, find a way to wrap up and then hand it off to me for the call to action and then mailbag.

Seyi (34:05)
Yeah, yeah,

I'm the male bag, yeah. And so I'll just do the future again with the, and then cut out that part, because I won't mention the second one.

So Reza, I'll now talk about where the future lies here. And it won't come as a surprise to any one of our listeners that the way we see the future of connection in our communities is for us to find a balance between investing in the physical digital infrastructure as much as we invest in the social infrastructure in our cities.

And what do I mean by investing in social infrastructure? It's walkable cities that increase the chances of people in their neighborhoods connecting as you walk your dogs or your kids play, your neighbors walk past and there's a nod of acknowledgement so that we all know we're part of this community. We need to invest in more walkable cities. The U.S. is filled with more suburbs where you can't walk than.

It needs to be in my opinion. So as much as we can start to shift from this car-centric culture to one that recognizes the need for proximity and a bit more density in our cities. We also need to invest a lot more in third spaces. The libraries give you an opportunity, your local library gives you an opportunity to start to connect with.

regular visitors to the library as well. The third spaces don't have to be purely transactional. I'm a fan of Starbucks, but the public third spaces that allow anyone income levels, race, demographic, shouldn't matter. You should be able to have access to a third space. Kids playing sports together.

parents interacting because the kids are playing sports together from all walks of life. Those things should start to be equally as important as the billions of dollars we're spending on the physical infrastructure to increase the access to communication technologies.

Reza (36:44)
Yeah, I love how you frame this as balancing digital and physical interactions. We do need digital technology. It has made our lives better. That's just a human way. We keep trying to advance technology and find better ways of doing things, but we have to retain our humanity and find ways that

we retain places where we can interact with others and feel human as opposed to sort of disconnected from one another. So what I'd like to take away from this, like in our call to action for our listeners, you know, as we close out our episode is, you know, take some time to observe the places that you go where they're intentionally retaining

those micro interactions, those physical interactions with others and where we're losing it and why. And if you have any good mail back items where you've observed these, please share them with us. But just like I've been starting to pay attention since we've had this conversation, I went to Black Pearl Books yesterday, one of your favorite bookstores. And the moment you walk in, Eric's at the counter.

and he sees me and I see him and I say hi to him and I feel so welcome to his store and I feel like I can walk around and I can ask him a question and he is intentionally, I feel, they've intentionally set up the store, designed the store for that interaction to occur where you feel welcome and I want to go back now, you know? And so that's an example of, you know, observe those types of things where, you know, where that occurs and why it's good and how it makes you feel.

Seyi (38:08)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Fantastic, yeah, I know it's glad you mentioned one of my favorite stores. And I've been in the store when other patrons have come in and they make the effort every single time. And this came up in the episode where we discussed the future of shops and small businesses as well to make you feel like you belong in the space.

Reza (39:02)
Yes.

Seyi (39:03)
And

yes, that is absolutely what we need in our cities now. it's been lost, but we can absolutely regain it.

Reza (39:14)
Yeah, yeah, so with that Seyi, I think we have a call mail bag. So why you take the first one and I'll take the second one.

Seyi (39:21)
Yeah, so we do have a couple mail bags. The first one comes from Amani Anai , and she was responding to something on LinkedIn. And thank you, because she gave us a couple of really good recommendations. And she goes, fantastic and thoughtful topics. Gentlemen would love to have the work and thought leadership of architect Indy Joha.

and philosopher activist Bayo Akomolafe somehow weaved into one of these upcoming discussions, just a thought, looking forward to staying tuned. will absolutely, Reza has already started to figure out a way to engage and we will learn more about them and bring them on if possible. So thank you, Amani.

Reza (40:11)
Yeah, that's a great one. And then I had a friend of mine from when I was on swim team in India, my friend Ashish Shah, reached out on LinkedIn and said, well done on the podcast. You guys are very conscientious and care about cities. Very nice. And that's really, thank you Ashish. Yes, we do care about cities. We so enjoy doing this. I'm glad you're enjoying it. It's great to hear that feedback.

Seyi (40:39)
Yes, thank you Ashish. It's the field that keeps us going. Knowing that our love for cities and creating sustainable cities and thriving communities shines through. So we're pretty excited, you noticed.

Reza (40:54)
Yeah. So with that, Seyi as we always say, please rate and review. That helps get the podcast recognized and listened to by others. Like and subscribe if you're on YouTube. Helps the algorithm move us up in the pile of all the other content out there. I'm sure our content is amazing compared to some of the other slop. That was almost the year, by the way. This is not Brain Rot.

which is the word of the year. Throw that one in. But more than anything else, take a minute to share this with someone that you know would enjoy this, someone that you love, someone that you care for. We really enjoy doing this and we love hearing from people. So share your mailbag with us as well and we'll bring it up in our next episode. So with that, Shae, thank you to everyone who's listening and we will see you next time.

Seyi (41:27)
Yes.

We will see you next time. Bye.

Reza (41:55)
Bye.