Future Forward

Seyi (00:02.062)
Hello, hello, hello Reza, how are you today?

Reza (00:04.3)
I'm good Seyi how are you doing?

Seyi (00:06.176)
I am doing well, I am doing well. It is another episode of Future Forward and this time we will be talking about a city that is near and dear to your heart.

Reza (00:19.318)
Yeah, we're gonna talk about the future of Mumbai. This is our city edition. this is a type of episode that we're gonna try to do in the future where one of us visits a city. We're gonna try to explore a little bit about the city and share what we observe through the lens of our 21 laws. But before we do that, let's have you tell our listeners what Future Forward's about and then I'll jump in.

Seyi (00:44.482)
Yes, welcome to our new listeners. We're so glad you can join us and to our regular listeners. We, as we always say, we truly appreciate you coming back and sharing Future Forward with your friends. Future Forward is a conversation Reza and I had been having for years now before we decided to start the podcast where we would explore cities.

talk about the history of cities, the thread that runs through from the history into the present, and just mall and share ideas about strategic foresight for what the cities could be in the future, with the underlying goal being to build cities to be sustainable and have the people in those cities thrive and

just enjoy and be fulfilled in the cities they live in. We've been doing this now for a few years and Future Forward, podcast, is our way of inviting you into the conversation. So welcome.

Reza (01:56.91)
Yeah, welcome everyone. And so, you I grew up in Mumbai, Shai, and I go and visit there almost every year. My mom and my brother still live there. And we thought, what an opportunity for me to kind of explore and look at the city through the eyes of future forward with our curiosity, with our 21 laws. And so we're gonna use the same format where I'll talk about the history of the city and I'm gonna keep that brief.

Then I'll talk about what's happening in Mumbai today, and I will give you my take based on what's going on, big infrastructure projects, things that are happening in the city, so I'll share my take. And then we're gonna pick one of our 21 laws, you'll talk about that, and then we'll go into sort of the strategic foresight part of it. So let's jump in, Shai, and I will start with a very brief historical overview of Mumbai. Mumbai's begins as seven small islands that were inhabited

by fishermen, Koli fishermen. The Portuguese arrived in the 16th century and they named the area Bombaia or Good Bay. In 1661, the islands were transferred to the British as part of Catherine of Braganza, one of the queens in Portugal, her dowry when she married Charles II of England. And so this city,

was given out of a dowry. I mean, you're shaking your head. know, blows your mind all this colonial stuff that we've been through. Now, the British East India Company developed, they took over, they were given jurisdiction on Mumbai and they developed Mumbai as a major port and they renamed it Bombay. Very close to Bombahia, they named it Bombay. That's how I still call the city Bombay, because that's a great name.

Now, the opening of the Suez Canal in 1869 transformed Bombay into a critical, crucial international trade hub. In the late 19th century, in the early 20th century, the city became the center of both India's textile industry and the freedom movement. Now here, I will insert a little part of my history. My grandfather lived in Shiraz in Iran. That's why my last name is Shirazi. Shiraz was not thriving and...

Reza (04:18.516)
he was a trader with his family that would go to Bombay and trade textiles, carpets. They used to go there specifically to get dyes and take it back to Iran to use in the carpet industry there. And at one point he decided because Bombay was thriving so much, he decided to open shop in Bombay and until about 30, 40 years ago that shop still existed in the market there.

And so that's the story of how I ended up there. I'm Iranian, but an economic migrant. My grandfather chose to move to a city that was thriving so that he could pursue a better life. And this is the story of migration all over the world. People that leave, want to go somewhere, make a better life. And I grew up in a community of Iranians that were economic migrants from Iran that were in Bombay.

Seyi (05:09.304)
Yeah.

Reza (05:16.046)
And that's, you my wife is from that same community. And you know, that's how I met Nagme and how we got married. And which goes to another episode that we're gonna talk about, which is about migration and why that's important for cities. But let's come back to Bombay. After India's independence in 1947, Bombay continued to grow as the country's financial and entertainment capital. In 1995, the city was officially renamed Mumbai, derived from the goddess Mumba Devi.

worshiped by the original Koli fishermen inhabitants. Now there was a right wing government that, you know, that came into power in Maharashtra, the state and in Mumbai, and they didn't like the British name of Bombay and they renamed it Mumbai. I still love the name Bombay, you know, but it's Mumbai now. So that's the history, Seyi. Let me pause over here.

Seyi (06:08.962)
Yeah, it's so interesting. I'm so glad you touched on the, your own history in relation to the history of Mumbai, Bombay, because we unfortunately live in a time where we're diminishing the value of migration and the benefits that.

allowing migrants into our cities bring. I was having a conversation with someone maybe a few weeks ago now where we both migrants were talking about the fact that most economic migrants don't leave where they're from because they hate where they're from. And I say economic migrants intentionally, it is...

to go use your skills or your expertise in the place you're going to because you feel you can generate more returns from exchanging the value you create with the value you can receive. And the underlying thing there is that you are going there to create value. We've lost that. And so I'm so glad you shared that and just a rich history there.

Reza (07:28.034)
Yes.

Yes.

Reza (07:35.266)
Yeah, thanks, Shady. That's such a good point. I can't wait to pull on that thread on another episode. I am very grateful for, you know, growing up in Mumbai and all the opportunity that he gave my family, you my dad. You know, he had a thriving business there and I grew up in that city and I still love that city. So let's talk about what's going on in Mumbai today. So Mumbai is India's financial powerhouse, its most populous city.

with approximately 20 million residents in its metropolitan area. It's a super city, it's like a super large city, huge place. So economically, its significance, it contributes to about 6 % of India's GDP and 40 % of its maritime trade. It's home to the Bombay Stock Exchange established in 1875. It's Asia's oldest stock exchange, even older than

know, Hong Kong, Singapore, other countries. The center of Bollywood, the Filmed Street is in Mumbai. It produces over 200 films annually, staggering number. It is one of the world's most densely populated cities, 20,000 people per square kilometer. I'm gonna use kilometers in here just because that's the metric system in India. people that, that's a lot of people in a very small area.

Seyi (08:55.566)
The metric, exactly.

Reza (09:01.354)
Now it does face significant housing challenges with over 40 % of its residents living in informal settlements, chawls and slums. Chawl is the word that they use for slums over there. One of the largest slums in the world, Dharavi, has a million people living in one square mile. So get this, it has an annual, that slum has an annual economic output of a billion dollars a year. Now you would think like a slum is not a place where people thrive.

Seyi (09:28.46)
Yep.

Reza (09:31.234)
but it is and I will bring this up a little further on in the episode where I talk about Dharavi. But let me pause over here before I jump into the infrastructure projects that I wanna talk about and get your reaction.

Seyi (09:43.628)
Yeah, just to help with a little bit of context for the population density point you made. unfortunately, I will stick with square miles, but people can very quickly see that the difference in the numbers will still be apparent regardless of the metric we're using. So people talk about LA as a big city.

and the density in LA is about 8,500 people per square mile.

Reza (10:17.804)
Yeah.

Seyi (10:19.758)
Philadelphia, about 12,000 people per square mile. Chicago, also about 12,000. New York is the most dense in the US. As far as I can see, about 28,000 people per square mile. So you very quickly understand just the...

the density of a place like Mumbai when you think about it in context to some of the big cities that are considered huge here in the US. So thanks for sharing that.

Reza (11:00.75)
Yeah, yeah, you're welcome. Yeah, and it's good to sort of contrast it with what the US is. What I tell people, the moment I land in Mumbai, switch to, just like you have airplane mode, I switch to Mumbai mode, because it's just like, your senses are assaulted, your space completely changes, your private space completely changes, and so.

Seyi (11:15.63)
different. Yeah.

Yep.

Reza (11:27.126)
I go into Mumbai mode when I go there. I love going there. I love being in Mumbai mode, but I love coming back here home to Austin too. So let's talk about some of, Mumbai is going through this incredible, massive change, infrastructure transformation. It's a city that sort of didn't invest enough in it over the years, but now it's investing a ton in it. So let's talk about.

Seyi (11:33.358)
to Austin mode.

Reza (11:54.474)
five of these points and then I'll let you sort of comment on it. So there's the Mumbai Coastal Road Project. It's a 29.2 kilometer freeway along Mumbai's Western coastline. Mumbai is on the West Coast of India. It's an island on the West Coast of India, in fact. It's estimated to cost about $1.7 billion. It will reduce travel time between South Mumbai and the Western suburbs from two hours down to 40 minutes. And it includes 13 kilometers of reclaimed land that they say

will they will add parks and recreational spaces. So that's one and I have comments on this one when I get to the end of this section. The Mumbai Metro, the subway, it's expanding from one line that was built a few years ago to a comprehensive network of 14 lines covering 337 kilometers. So it's gonna be an incredibly large subway system. It's expected to reduce crowding on the suburban railways by 35%.

The current commuter suburban railway carries 7.5 million people daily. That's a staggering number. 7.5 million people use this, know, surface rail line to come from the suburbs into the Mumbai city center. I remember, you know, using this commuter rail, you know, a few times. I didn't use it often. I used the bus system sometimes, but not the commuter rail. It is, you know, it's staggeringly crowded. It's, you know, you have to know how to...

Seyi (13:06.606)
Wow.

Reza (13:24.258)
go on, you know, get on and get off at the right places and all that stuff. I haven't been in the Metro yet. There's the Mumbai trans Harbor link. It's India's longest sea bridge. Again, Mumbai's, you know, an island off the coast. It's connecting Mumbai with Navi Mumbai, which is new Mumbai. It reduces travel from two hours down to 20 minutes. Instead of...

going up all the way to the top of the island, crossing over the coast and coming down to New Mumbai, just cut straight across the sea to cut that. So it's facilitating the development of Navi Mumbai and reduces congestion. They've been trying to develop Navi Mumbai for years, ever since I was a kid, but they never quite could just because it was so disconnected from the rest of the city. I would expect that there would be better development now that there's this connection.

Seyi (13:56.844)
I see.

Seyi (14:16.558)
Mm.

Reza (14:17.526)
I didn't get a chance to travel on this. In fact, I've never been to Navi Mumbai. I mean, this is like staggering. I've just never been there. was like, don't think it was so distant. was like another place when I was growing up. We're gonna have a new international airport that's gonna be built in Navi Mumbai. It's a greenfield airport with a capacity for 16 million passengers annually. It will alleviate the pressure on the very overcrowded current international airport, Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj International Airport.

Seyi (14:21.454)
Wow.

Reza (14:47.526)
That's a very convoluted name for an airport named after this brave warrior from Maharashtra that that right-wing government decided that they wanted to name the airport. used to be called Sahara Airport. I never thought like, why did you change the name? But that aside, I'm revealing my biases over here. It's expected to boost regional economic development, which is, it's going to be a better airport for the city. And that's important.

Seyi (15:08.558)
You

Reza (15:16.492)
And the last one that I'll touch on is the Dharavi redevelopment project. So I mentioned that slum, Dharavi. It's an ambitious plan to transform one of Asia's largest semi-formal or informal settlements. It aims to provide better housing, sanitation and community facilities for residents and estimated to cost $2.7 billion. And I have some very, very incisive commentary about this one, but before I do that,

So I'm going to pause over here, let you comment on these five projects that I just talked about.

Seyi (15:50.894)
Yeah, no, so the one, I think I'll touch on really just one that is the most obvious comparison. The daily ridership on the New York public transportation system, which I believe is the MTA, which I believe is the biggest in the US, has about 3.6 million people.

Reza (15:57.656)
Mm-hmm.

Seyi (16:19.994)
on the subways and about 1.4 million on the buses daily. So there's a slew of other forms and the number it comes up to for total ridership on New York City public transportation every day is actually 7 million people as well. And so again, I share this to keep our listeners sort of clear about the...

Reza (16:24.75)
Mm-hmm.

Reza (16:40.568)
Wow. Wow.

Seyi (16:48.878)
the size and the scale, using references that we're all pretty familiar with. And so these projects are huge projects in a place that currently houses 20 million people. It is a good thing to see, but I also have some sort of reservations, which I'll get to when I get to the 21 laws, but please, I'd love your take on.

Reza (16:50.658)
Yes.

Reza (16:58.082)
Yeah. Yeah.

Reza (17:18.004)
Yes. Yeah, so let me touch on the Dharavi redevelopment project first. They're trying to take the slum and redevelop it. It's going to be done as a public-private partnership, and it was awarded to the Adani Group. Now, if anyone has paid attention to the news, Adani and this company, this conglomerate,

Seyi (17:18.464)
on the project since you saw some of them recently.

Reza (17:46.478)
is under investigation by the SEC for stock fraud. And this family conglomerate group, Gautam Adani, I think is his name, has very close ties with the Modi government. And that is already troubling because you're basically taking this super rich person and allowing them to decide how to redevelop this area to make them even richer.

For example, these airports that were in India were basically given to the Adani group to run. I don't think much of RFPs or giving other people to bid on it and things like that. it's a problem that we are going to see. India is, I would say, with the Modi government, a right-wing nationalist government.

with very close ties to business, it has improved the economic state of India, but at a cost. So let me just talk about this particular redevelopment in the Chalds. My experience of seeing Chalds redeveloped, I saw some of these areas in Mumbai where these informal slums were redeveloped into super tall buildings. And as I talk to people about this redevelopment, they...

told me that at one point when these people had these chals, they felt close to one another and had a community. But as soon as they went up in these buildings, two things happened. One is they lost this connection with the people that they were their neighbors to get this informal form of support. But the other more critical factor is like when you live in a building, you have like HOA fees or society fees, it's called over there, and these people can't afford it.

they don't know how to maintain an apartment. Like it's not an informal development where something can be patched up. Like if something goes wrong in an apartment, they don't know what to do or it costs much more than they could afford. So even though they were moved from a chawl into the affordable part of the super tall tower and other parts of that tower were also with other more economically advantaged people living there.

Reza (20:09.898)
It just, you know, it causes a bit of a problem. So I don't think they involve the community in this. And I know you're gonna have comments on this. So let me touch on a couple other things that were my takes. Shane and I, you know, we'll let you comment on the coastal road. They've talked about redeveloping parts of where they reclaim the land.

Seyi (20:25.102)
Please do.

Reza (20:38.242)
to put parks and public spaces there, but we don't see it, we're not seeing it happening. Whenever I ask someone, hey, what's happening to this land? Aren't they supposed to build parks? And no one knows, they're seeing some parking lots come up, they're seeing some private entities getting that land from the government. In fact, there was a petition that was circling around when I was there about committing

asking the government to commit to putting these parks on the coastal road because they didn't see any evidence of it happening. So that's kind of a troubling thing with that development. There's a dramatic change to the cityscape. There are parts of the city that are completely changing, but there are parts of the city, especially South Mumbai, that they're...

retaining the historical preservation. There's an area called Kalagoda, which is a black horse, literally. It was basically a statue of a, I think it was King George on a horse. was a black statue and it was called Kalagoda. I mean, of course they took King George off it. It's just a horse that's there and that's what that air is called. But they have preserved that, but a lot of other things are changing.

And so I see some good things like they're redeveloping that area, but other parts are just, I just don't recognize them anymore. The last point that I wanna bring, Seyi and I'm gonna hand this off to you. My brother asked me while I was there, like, what do you miss most about Mumbai? Like, why do you keep coming back here? What do you miss about it? And I said, one was the constant interaction. There's so much street life energy. You go 200 feet and

things change, so much variation in the city and it's very energizing if you like that. And that's why I like big cities, I like that energy change, the variation and you have to interact. You're interacting with the taxi driver, interacting with the shopkeeper. And that is, I don't know, it's not transactional. I feel like in the US, we're in our

Reza (22:56.238)
like we go to the gas station, you don't interact with anyone over there. You go to the grocery store, we've talked about this. You go to the grocery store, you do self-service checkout, you don't interact with anyone. And that's like this missing part. I love going to Mumbai and just like having this constant interaction. In fact, one of these interactions, I was looking for a place to buy an Economist magazine while I was there. I wanted to read it, I usually read it when I travel. And so I found a guy on the road selling

newspapers and magazines and he was like, well, I usually get one economist a week. Give me your number and I will call you when it comes in on Monday. And I did that. I gave him my number. He called me. I went there and I picked up the magazine. I had this great conversation with him because it was just like this great interaction. He was telling me about his perspective on what's going on in the US and how it's similar to India. It was a fascinating conversation with a guy that sells newspapers, obviously up with the news because he's seeing it all the time.

Seyi (23:34.286)
you

Reza (23:54.69)
So very interesting situation about being there and yeah, really enjoyed. But let me pause over here. I'm going on and on. could keep talking about Mumbai, but I think I want your comments now.

Seyi (24:07.914)
no, it's totally, that is the point of the episode for you to talk about Mumbai. So I'll touch on, this was going to be my last point, but because of what you just shared, I'll make it my first one in response to what you just talked about. The thing I see in most cities, which is evident in what you're describing about the changes in Mumbai, is that places,

Reza (24:10.892)
Yeah.

Seyi (24:36.652)
that are maybe old or considered slum or slum-like or not part of the obvious growth of the city get torn down or changed or removed and what is lost is the organic nature of the Cities are organic and their systems

Reza (24:58.274)
Yes.

Seyi (25:06.424)
There's chaos in systems. Some of those places represent the chaos in systems, but that does not mean there's no order within the system. The slums in most cities of the world, one thing that I know that exists across the world, and I believe we might have.

Reza (25:08.386)
Yes.

Reza (25:15.214)
Yes. Yes.

Seyi (25:28.792)
touched on this in our own offline conversation is this informal banking system that helps the people in these slums to get on with their lives and at least manage. They need more, but they manage to live their lives in these informal banking systems that exist within the slums. And the thing that helps those

Reza (25:36.014)
Mm-hmm

Reza (25:46.53)
Yes.

Seyi (25:57.3)
informal banking systems even work is that you will always run into your neighbors and the trust. When you take away the structures that are side by side for miles around you and you make it vertical, you have taken away the serendipity that

Reza (26:05.048)
Yeah. Trust.

Reza (26:26.424)
Yes. Yes.

Seyi (26:27.092)
is likely to happen, you have taken away the micro interactions that will lead to the the well-being and the trust of those people. Instead of addressing the problems they have at a policy or governmental level, you think you just need to give them homes built by some rich person who hasn't engaged with the individuals who live in those places.

Reza (26:36.066)
Yes.

Reza (26:50.584)
Yeah. Yeah. mean, it's just Adani is just going to become richer because he's redeveloping with these super tall buildings. And, you know, I don't know, it's just terrible. It's such a disappointing thing. But you bring up a really good point, Shae, about how it's this micro, these micro interactions, these, you're seeing someone eye to eye, building that trust and all that serendipity that comes with it in these informal ways of interacting where people can thrive.

Seyi (27:01.024)
It is. It is. It is. It is.

Seyi (27:19.202)
Yeah, and be resilient, be resilient together. Yeah. And we, we strip them of that when we just try and throw them in buildings that were built by some rich guy who did not consult the people because we think they don't know.

Reza (27:19.264)
It might not look like it and be resilient. Yes, yes. That's a good point. Yeah.

Seyi (27:36.214)
So that was the first comment, which is quite disappointing to hear about something of that nature. That being said, as you highlighted, some of the projects are good ones. So the coastal road project, example, shortening the time, that makes a ton of sense because you will have to utilize other forms of transportation.

depend, you're not forced into the one that has traditionally been the case. And I do think the comment I had here was that as much as we can build adaptive usage patterns into these projects, the reclaimed land parks, make them actual parks.

Don't just, as you were saying, where, hey, they're supposed to to create parks here. What's happening, nobody knows. Let nature have a say in the developments as well. Not just ongoing developments that we're building to ignore the fact that we need natural amenities.

Reza (28:44.11)
Interesting.

Seyi (29:00.952)
for the people of the city to also utilize. The stations shouldn't just be transit points was another one that came to mind. I can think of, I'll use London as a city, around every train stop is a thriving bed of activities. And I think, interestingly, Austin has borrowed a page from that idea. You can get.

Reza (29:08.383)
Mm hmm.

Seyi (29:30.764)
the train or buses or drive to go watch an Austin FC game and around the Austin FC, the Q2 stadium is just a lot of stuff you can do as you prep to watch the game, for example. And if those locations were just transit points,

Reza (29:47.16)
Yes.

Reza (29:51.052)
Yeah.

Seyi (29:58.318)
there would be no thriving ecosystem there. And so as Mumbai, as the work is going on in Mumbai to improve these metros and transit stations, that should be considered as well instead of just the transition between one place to another. That is typically what is going on. So I'll pause there, but those were the two main or three main points that.

Reza (30:17.56)
Yeah.

Seyi (30:24.654)
pop to mind for me as you were talking about these projects. It's fascinating how much is going on though.

Reza (30:29.186)
Yeah, yeah. Those are really, really very cogent points. And I think we have one of our 21 laws that really apply here. Seyi, maybe touch on that.

Seyi (30:39.05)
Exactly, exactly. Yeah, I, I and the law is that emergence and entropy are required to build thriving and sustainable cities. We the the randomness that that is required for things to emerge in a city and the things that emerge in city out of the chaos are going to be

Reza (30:49.087)
Mm, yeah.

Reza (30:54.989)
Yes.

Reza (30:59.949)
Yes.

Seyi (31:06.323)
almost as critical as the planned elements of the city. And it feels like in the balance, there's less emergence being allowed than is necessary here.

Reza (31:09.496)
Yes. Yes.

Reza (31:19.95)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, such a good point Jay. Great selection of one of our 21 laws. And it's a good segue, because some of the points that you brought up are a good segue to the last part of the episode, is strategic foresight, the future of Mumbai. And I'm gonna break this up into a section on opportunities, let you comment on a section on challenges. And so the opportunities that Mumbai has, it-

It can grow as a financial hub. URTI is a thriving financial center that rivals Singapore and Hong Kong. It can become better. There's growth in fintech, Mumbai's URTI home to a very, very big and burgeoning financial technology sector. So that's one. Two, which you mentioned, there's an opportunity for sustainable development. These coastal areas offer opportunities for renewable energy development, these parks and urban forests.

We're not quite taking them, but I think there's a chance even this new infrastructure can incorporate green building practices, smart city technologies. Three, it's a creative city. know, Bollywood is in Mumbai itself. There's a potential for expansion in design, gaming, digital content, already is, but it could be even more.

Seyi (32:47.662)
Hmm.

Reza (32:47.854)
we could leverage the cultural diversity to become a really creative powerhouse. It already is, it could become more. And the point over here, cultural diversity, like if you go to Mumbai, it doesn't feel like other cities because people from everywhere in India are there. You don't feel like, you you really feel like it's a cosmopolitan city. Yeah. The fourth one, very related to the third, which is technology and innovation, because it's a creative city, it can become a premier innovation hub with its concentration of

Seyi (32:53.358)
Hmm.

Seyi (33:04.846)
It's not homogenous like some of the cities.

Reza (33:16.814)
really good educational institutions, corporate headquarters, and this creative mindset. And then the last thing, which is tourism development, there's a rich architectural heritage, incredible Victorian buildings in Mumbai. We have an incredible coastline, and I don't think Mumbai really takes advantage of this. it doesn't...

It is not thought of the first place in India for tourism and it could be. It could be. It has these waterfront areas, historical sites that could really attract tourists. So those are the five opportunities that I see. But before I jump into challenges, let you comment.

Seyi (33:58.136)
Yeah, no, it's a quick, simple comment about the fact that the future of Mumbai, the opportunities in Mumbai will have to come from its uniqueness in the world, honestly. And some of the things you mentioned, like there are zero other places like Bollywood. Even the name might sound like Nollywood, which is the Nigerian version, or Hollywood, the US version, but...

Reza (34:09.568)
Mm. Yeah.

Reza (34:16.962)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Seyi (34:25.73)
Bollywood is uniquely what it is and consequently the things that spring out from that will be unique. And I would suggest that if that uniqueness is lost in this standardization of things, it will not reach its full potential, which as it is already huge, but there's so much more that can still happen. So yeah.

Reza (34:25.848)
It is you. It is.

Reza (34:41.326)
Mm.

Reza (34:49.854)
Yeah, yeah, I love that. I love that. Such a good point, Seyi, especially Bollywood and its uniqueness. it is something differentiating about the city that no other city has. How can it take advantage of it? Now, Mumbai faces some challenges. I have five over here as well. Climate vulnerability. It is a coastal city. It's low lying. It faces rising sea levels and increasingly severe monsoons. We have flooding over there. It seems to get worse and worse every year. Because development has been just like,

Seyi (34:59.118)
Yep.

Reza (35:19.598)
know, just like a crazy pace of development without thinking about sort of storm water drain, runoff and all those kinds of things. So very, very troubling that it could be really impacted by the climate. There's still a housing crisis, continuing housing affordability challenges. We do require better solutions over there. You know, this changing Charles to towers is not, I don't think is the best solution.

a need for inclusive urban planning that addresses the needs of all economic classes. And the child example sort of reminds me about, you know, the mailbag that Kelly, our friend Kelly sent in about New Orleans and how they want to redevelop New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. And they built these houses that just didn't fit in the neighborhood and that, you know, those those residents just couldn't live in. I think it's the same problem. It's not there's not an inclusivity in deciding how to address this housing crisis. So I think that's a real problem.

Seyi (36:15.789)
I

Reza (36:17.41)
Transportation congestion, know, induced demand, You know, it's gonna go from two hours down to 20 minutes, but it's not gonna stay 20 minutes for very long. Despite these new projects, we need a better integrated mobility planning beyond just the infrastructure for roads. Last mile connectivity remains a significant challenge, especially for these metro stations. I mean, it's not as bad in Mumbai. It is walkable, but I think just the focus on...

these coastal roads and things are maybe not the only way to solve transportation challenges over there. Economic inequality, I can't bring this up firmly enough. There's a persistent wealth gap that could worsen with this gentrification, this redevelopment. There is a need for more inclusive growth strategies that create opportunities across the socioeconomic levels. It is a very, I mean, the one...

Seyi (36:49.545)
Mm-mm.

Reza (37:11.618)
thing about Mumbai that I distinctly remember and I think is a positive thing about Mumbai. Slums are side by side with tall buildings. You can't escape it. So it's not like they have segregated the city into two parts where the poor live in one area and the rich would live in another area. It's very mixed. Now, the suburban area is maybe less well-off than South Mumbai.

But you do interact with all classes all the time, which is a positive thing about Mumbai, but economic inequality is still gonna be a challenge. And then the last thing is environmental degradation, there are threats to the remaining mangroves. Mumbai was seven islands, swamps between the seven islands that were made into one big island. there's Mahim Creek, there were these mangroves, and that was the resilience for the city with monsoons and floods.

these swamps and mangroves absorbed the water, absorbed the high tides, absorbed the monsoons, we're losing that. So there's a lot of pollution that's going off into these watersheds. There's a lot of air quality concerns. When I was in Mumbai, it was constantly not smog, but construction dust fills the air.

because of so much construction going on. So, you know, it's hazy all the time. And so we really have to sort of find that balance between development and environmental protection. But yeah, that's the challenges part of that. Shea's a mouthful of things there.

Seyi (38:37.998)
Mm.

Seyi (38:48.044)
Yeah. no, it's unfortunate, but I think some of the lasting images of Mumbai that I have in mind are the pictures of the smog or the air pollution that descends upon the city.

because of construction, but also because of some of the climate change that we're absolutely not paying attention to, at least anymore here in the US anyway, at the leadership level. And I do think that the needs of the people, we always come back to this, Reza, the needs of the people in the city should define the work that happens in the city.

Reza (39:40.29)
Yeah. Yeah.

Seyi (39:41.262)
The more we listen to the people, the better.

formed and fashioned that our solutions are to address the needs they have the most. So thanks for sharing these unfortunate challenges, but with the creativity that exists in a place like Mumbai, I see no reason why this can't be solved or addressed. Yeah.

Reza (39:49.24)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Reza (40:03.084)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, I love Mumbai. I love visiting there. You know, I share these out of a place of love. You know, I don't mean to, you know, criticize, you know, the city and its residents in any way. I am a, you know, Mumbai-ker by heart. That's where I grew up and I want the city to thrive and not, you know, not have, you know, this.

these challenges that they're facing. Seyi, with that, we've come to the end of talking about Mumbai, and I want to transition to talk about a mailbag before we close the show. And the mailbag isn't necessarily from one of our listeners, but one of the thought leaders that we admire, Brian Potter, who writes the newsletter, Construction Physics, and in his most recent

newsletter of links of things to read, he talks about streetlights and crime. And the reason I bring this up is because we have talked about Jane Jacobs. And you remember you talked about that example of eyes on the street and how important that is in a particular community. And so she wanted cities to design areas with that eyes on the street, with that idea in mind.

and it would be made safer by this passive surveillance of having lots of people around. And this would be a way to, and this design would encourage the presence of people by having both residential and commercial development there. So in the same vein of reducing crime by way of increased visibility, there was a paper that was written that found that expanding street lighting significantly reduced crime. And so I'm gonna read a little summary of this.

The study evaluated the impact of Philadelphia's citywide rollout of enhanced street lighting on crime rates. Results showed a 15 % decline in nighttime gun violence following streetlight upgrades. The upgrades may account for approximately 5 % of the citywide reduction in gun violence during this period, and qualitative data suggests that residents' perception of safety and neighborhood vitality improved following the installation of new streetlights. And so the study demonstrates large-scale streetlight upgrades can lead to significant reductions in crime rates.

Reza (42:27.758)
supporting the use of energy efficiency LED lighting as a crime reduction strategy. So I thought there was like a really very interesting small thing that could be done. I mean, this is street lighting, but it had a material impact on the quality of life in a city.

Seyi (42:43.382)
Yeah, that is fascinating. Thanks for sharing that. And intuitively, you can imagine, yes, this provided data to back it up, but you can see how the perception of safety increases. Daylight, daytime, you feel a little bit more safe even in, because you can see what is going on around you and adding that element to.

Reza (42:52.696)
Yeah. Yes.

Reza (42:58.636)
Yes. Yes.

Yes.

Seyi (43:11.086)
the night time in areas where you have issues of safety intuitively makes a ton of sense but I appreciate that there's some data to actually back this up in an actual city.

Reza (43:20.418)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we love our data. So yeah, so I thought I'd share that, but that brings us to the end of the episode. Let's ask our listeners our closing thoughts before we sign off.

Seyi (43:25.238)
Yes, we do. We

Seyi (43:40.248)
Yeah. Yeah. First off, I'll say thanks for sharing your passion about Mumbai, Bombay, as you prefer to call it, Reza. Super informative and your desire to see it improve is pretty clear. And for our listeners, we hope anyone who listens who has a similar perspective might disagree with some things. Please reach out. We always...

Reza (43:49.432)
Mm-hmm.

Seyi (44:09.228)
I appreciate that. Hello at future4.fm. The website future4.fm. Check out the past episodes. Share any thoughts you have about any of the old episodes or this one you just listened to and share with a friend. We say you can be kind to us if you see value in this podcast by...

sharing with someone you think is a curious mind as well. I'm sure that they're one or two things that can satisfy some of their curiosities around cities here. So we appreciate you spending some time with us today and till next time, thank you.

Reza (44:52.27)
Thanks, bye.