Future Forward

Seyi (00:01)
Hello, hello, hello Reza, how are you today? I am doing very well, I am doing very well. I am excited at today's episode of Future Forward because we're talking about restaurants, Reza.

Reza (00:03)
I'm good Seyi how you doing?

Yeah, and really this was inspired by a conversation that we had, Shay, about what do we love to do? What do each of us love to do when we go to cities? And one of the things that you mentioned was eating out. Like, you know, in the London episode, you talked about this. In fact, this is like one of the core things in that episode where you talked about going to that restaurant, Akara, ⁓ you know, with West African food with your brothers. And this is like the community aspect of it. So I said, yes, we should talk about restaurants and eating out.

Seyi (00:28)
Yeah.

Yep.

I'm so looking forward to this because it is a critical piece of cities. Honestly, food is so critical community. It's critical in communities. But before we dive in, I welcome our listeners. ⁓ Thanks so much for joining us again. If you're a regular listener to Future Forward, and if you're a new listener, thank you. We're always appreciative of people discovering the show.

like to say future forward is a conversation on Reza and I had been having for years before we decided to bring everyone else into it. We would meet up Fridays and even during the pandemic and have conversations around how cities are growing, what is going on, the communities within cities, all towards figuring out how to build

thriving communities and sustainable cities. And so every week we take an episode that is city-centric and then put this historic lens, the present day, and then provide some strategic foresight about where we think cities will go as it relates to that topic. And we came up a few, about a year ago now, I think, we came up with 21 laws.

that provide us a lens through which we look at the topics we discuss. So welcome. And as we just mentioned, today's episode is on the future of eating out.

Reza (02:16)
Yeah. Thank you, Shay. Great intro. And, you know, I will start by saying about the history is really how restaurants became a pillar of city life. ⁓ And it really, the concept of restaurant as we know today dates back to the 18th century in Paris, where there were establishments that had individual meals at individual tables and that emerged to serve this rising middle class that was coming.

in Paris. And the word restaurant comes from the French word restorer. ⁓ And I'm not pronouncing this totally right, but the meaning is to restore as early establishments served restorative broths to refresh patrons. And the first restaurant is often attributed to Monsieur Boulanger, who opened an establishment in Paris in 1765, and that served these single dishes.

It was really after the French Revolution where many chefs were previously employed by aristocratic households. They found themselves unemployed and opened up restaurants to serve the public. So that's really the inception point for restaurants. But the roots go deeper because in ancient Roman China, there were taverns, tea houses, they served travelers, locals. ⁓ They often centered around public baths or marketplaces. And so there were early food establishments.

and they were essential for people without access to private kitchens, typically the urban poor, travelers or transient workers. But cities really sort of took hold in the form that we know today ⁓ in Paris. And then the Industrial Revolution, rapid urbanization in the 19th century, this really gave the dramatic rise in food establishments. Workers needed quick, affordable meals. Entrepreneurs went to meet that need.

And so by the 20th century, restaurants were embedded in the social and economic fabric of cities. ⁓ They weren't just about eating, they were about community, identity, public life. They've become a place where people can gather together, where cultural traditions are preserved, exchanged, where economic opportunity can flourish, especially for immigrant and minority communities. And so in many ways, the restaurant became a public living room for the city, ⁓ both a mirror and a motor for urban life.

So let me pause over there, Shai, and that's my historical take at it and see what thoughts you had.

Seyi (04:41)
Yeah, no, thanks for sharing that Reza. The big thing that kept popping up to me as I was reading the show notes and also listening to you is this idea that we've touched on a lot as ⁓ public spaces or in some cases private spaces being third spaces. And in our third spaces episode, we touched on these salons and where people would go. And you can totally see how the restaurant

Reza (05:06)
Yes.

Seyi (05:10)
serves that same purpose you mentioned. Travelers and almost every movie or old dramatization you see, you see people gathering in a place where food is served by a patron that you pay. And ⁓ you'd see all these fights in some of these restaurants. And so there's this very communal element to restaurants, which is what you're calling out. So fascinating.

Reza (05:24)
Yes.

Yeah,

yeah. Thank you, Shay. That's absolutely it. It's that, you know, the third space, that communal space ⁓ where people can come together and we talk about community all the time. So really good ⁓ insight over there. So let's ⁓ go and look at what's happening with restaurants today, sort of a next part of our episode. And I'll start with data and I'll talk about some

⁓ trends in the US and then some global trends. So the United States, they're over a million restaurants. They employ ⁓ roughly 15.5 million people, which is about 10 % of the entire US workforce. So you can see this is like an economic engine. They generate a trillion in annual sales. According to National Restaurant Association, independent restaurants make up the majority, about 70%. I was surprised about this. ⁓

But franchises dominate in revenue due to scale and brand recognition. And I think that's like, I was surprised. was like, I thought it's, you know, the chains, but it's just because you see them all the time. But I like the fact that independent restaurants make up the majority. Fast food represents 40 % of all restaurant sales in America. That's unique to the US. And about 60 % of US adults report dining out at least once a week. So it is a sort of an important part of our ⁓ economic and cultural

narrative. So let's look at some global trends, some slight differences. The global food service market is projected to reach 5.2 trillion by 2030. It's been growing steadily since the post pandemic. Asia Pacific is leading the growth and this is driven by urbanization and rising disposable incomes. You know, in the episode that we had about mega cities, we talked about the rising urbanization in that region. So ⁓ you could see this with restaurants happening as well.

Street food economies remain vital in cities across Southeast Asia, Africa, and Latin America, where they often serve as the informal food safety net. So for those workers, for those people that need just a very basic meal. Urban areas typically have 10 to 15 % more restaurants per capita than suburban or rural areas. I think that's an interesting stat to consider. And then globally franchises are expanding, but local...

culturally specific food businesses remain the most resilient in many markets outside of the US. So let me pause over there, Seyi.

Seyi (08:07)
Yeah, yeah. As you were sharing the data, one of the things that I was also quite surprised by the fact that the independent restaurants make up the majority in the US. So thanks for sharing that. We love small businesses as ⁓ our listeners, ⁓ frequent listeners probably know. But I thought to dig a little bit deeper into, you know what, what is the business side of this?

Reza (08:24)
Yes.

Seyi (08:36)
At some point, yes, restaurant owners on the private smaller business side started out of passion most of the time, but the franchises and the more common chain restaurants tend to be business considerations. So what is the margin? And I, I'd always heard this anecdotally that restaurants make very low margins, which

means you have to have a lot of passion to keep running a restaurant in a city. The margins tend to fall between three and 10 % with the more highly efficient chain restaurants hitting the 10 % one, the 10 % end of the margin. And most small businesses that are independently owned restaurants closer to the 3 % side.

of the margin, which is extremely low. Anyone who does business knows those are not great margins to have. Which ties back to that point we were making as you're talking about the history. This tends to be for those independent business owners in cities that have repeat customers, friendly faces, people you know.

those restaurants become a community center. The families that keep coming there become known to the owners of the restaurant. And even as those businesses make low margins, they form part of the resilience backbone of a city. I know this a lot and you touch on

Reza (10:06)
Yeah.

Seyi (10:31)
the pandemic shortly, but that lack of resilience that was evident as a result of a lot of restaurants, local food places, going out of business, harkens back to everything we say, community resilience and sustainability in our cities. So I just wanted to touch on sort of the business, but also the community side of this.

Reza (10:57)
Yeah, those are great points, Shea, especially the one about economics, because I'm going to touch on the pandemic disruption and what that caused. And it revealed some of the challenges that restaurants have, especially with ⁓ the economic stats that you brought up. So in the US, over 100,000 restaurants closed permanently in 2020. So COVID-19 was like a seismic shock to the restaurant.

Seyi (11:05)
Yeah, yeah.

Reza (11:26)
⁓ business. The crisis accelerated shifts towards delivery, online ordering, contactless service. ⁓ So delivery takeout sales increased by over 150 % at many establishments. That was the only way that they survived. And you and I experienced this like, you know, trying to make our local places survive by, you know, ordering food out from them. I know, you know, we as a family, you know, kept getting our to go orders a couple times a week from

Seyi (11:41)
Yeah.

Reza (11:54)
taco deli because we didn't want them to go under because it's like one of our favorite family places to go to. So it really highlighted this vulnerability of the food business, but not just that, food workers too. They're low wage, often undocumented, lacking benefits. So that became a real challenge for that part of our ⁓ economy and our city community. And then post pandemic, we saw a boom in outdoor dining, pickup windows.

Seyi (11:57)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Reza (12:24)
a resurgence of localism with communities rallying to support independent spots. So there was sort of these changes that came about from the pandemic. the whole challenge with the workers has continued to occur. like mental health issues, burnout, labor shortages. You saw a lot of it in 2021 and 2022. You still see a little bit of...

that now, but in those two years, record resignations from restaurant workers. So it really reshaped ⁓ not just a restaurant industry, but urban commercial corridors. Some downtowns lost lunchtime business traffic permanently due to remote work while neighborhood based dinings saw some resurgence. So it was a big shift. was like what we brought up in the five events that shaped cities episodes, know, COVID-19 was a big shock and this is sort of

Seyi (13:16)
Yeah.

Reza (13:20)
a deep dive into a shock to that restaurant industry.

Seyi (13:25)
Yeah, so I'm so, I said this and I think we've had this conversation before. We as cities, as communities, we haven't fully reckoned with how much of a shock COVID was. We will be feeling the effects for a while and I'm so glad you brought up the point of the impact on this sector in particular because I also remember there's

And I'll mention this subsequently, a single location Thai food restaurant that we love in Austin. We became so regular there and it was delivery as well, because we'd order and then I'd go pick it up with my mask and everything. And our reason for buying, because I love to cook, we would cook and that used to be a treat for us.

But it stopped being a treat because we were just trying to spend money there to keep it going. And as you were sharing that, the second thing that popped in my head was that period also led to the rise of these like fake restaurants, ghost kitchens, ghost kitchens. And the thing that ghost kitchens lack,

Reza (14:28)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Ghost kittens.

Seyi (14:50)
And I don't know if they're still as prevalent as they became during COVID. The thing that ghost kitchens lacked was this face on the other end that you'd met unknown and done business with or communed with before the pandemic. And so they were more efficient. They were providing food that you could order and get delivered.

Reza (14:55)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Seyi (15:18)
but they did not have the fabric, the thread between the consumer and the restaurant that ⁓ typical independent restaurants have in our city. So I'm so glad you mentioned that and I thought to pull that thread.

Reza (15:23)
Yes.

I really love that you pull that thread. Ghost kitchens seem almost divorced from the community. They clearly are an efficient way of doing something, even when you order from a local place, like the Thai place that you went to, you know that restaurant. It's not this sort of behind a black box type of thing. yeah, and so it goes to this next section that I'm gonna...

Seyi (15:43)
Yeah.

Yep.

Yep.

Reza (16:05)
talk about where I picked two restaurants to kind of highlight the place that the restaurant has in the community and as part of the economic engine of a city. the first case study is more historical. It's called Dooky Chase's Restaurant. It's in New Orleans, Louisiana. It was founded in 1941. began as a sandwich shop in New Orleans Treme neighborhood, which is the oldest African-American neighborhood in the US.

Under the leadership of Leah Chase, the restaurant became a cultural and political institution known as much for its Creole cuisine as for its role in the civil rights movement. So it really had this community impact. In the 60s, Dooky Chase's was one of the only public places in segregated New Orleans where black and white activists could meet safely. It hosted secret strategy sessions for the NAACP leaders and freedom writers. It even served Martin Luther King Jr.

Beyond politics, it was a gallery for black art and a launch pad for black chefs. And after Hurricane Katrina, it reopened against immense odds to symbolize the resilience and recovery for the city. And so it wasn't just a business, it was civic infrastructure. We talk about this, social infrastructure, civic infrastructure. It provided food, of course it provided food, but also space, dignity, continuity for a community that was navigating immense systemic barriers, ⁓

the hurricane Katrina, which is like a natural disaster. ⁓ And we've talked about these types of community spaces in the face of disasters like this in past episodes. ⁓ And here's a quote from Edward Dooky Chase III, grandson of the founder, speaking to WWNO New Orleans Public Radio in 2023. And he said, my grandmother believed food was more than nourishment. It was diplomacy. It was resistance. was art.

When you walked into dookie chases, you weren't just eating gumbo, you were entering a history that had fed our city soul for generations. I love that.

Seyi (18:10)
Mm.

I love that. And I love that you mentioned this. I saw it in the notes and there was a documentary that we watched, I believe during COVID actually, that talked about this restaurant, about Dooky Chase's restaurant. I will remember the name. I believe it was a show called High on the Hog or something like that on Netflix. And yeah, and exactly, we saw this. And so again,

Reza (18:29)
Wow.

yeah, I remember that. Yes. Yes, yes. You and I saw this. Yes. Yes.

Seyi (18:42)
just the criticality of a place that for all intents and purposes on the face of it just serves food, but is really about much more than that. So thanks for bringing this example up. it's one that I think the folk who pay attention to activism, community impact, all have just ideas about what is possible as a result of Dooky Chase's.

Reza (18:51)
Yes.

Yes.

Yeah, thank you. And thanks for the reminder about that show. I now recall there was something here about why I picked this as a case study. So now I remember. So the next one, Jay, is one that's looking to the future. I picked a case study, La Cochina Municipal Marketplace in San Francisco, California. It opened in 2021 in San Francisco's Tenderloin neighborhood.

Seyi (19:20)
Yes.

Reza (19:43)
It's a woman-led food hall run by La Cochina, a nonprofit incubator supporting immigrant and low-income women entrepreneurs in the food industry. So there is a very interesting model here. So it's key features. It's a marketplace that hosts seven women of color-owned businesses under one roof representing food traditions from Senegal, Mexico, Nepal, El Salvador, and others. It's located in a historically under-invested part of the city, activating

that activates vacant ground floor retail in a city owned building. The vendors receive below market rent to make it easier for them. ⁓ They get some backend business support and they have a path to long-term economic mobility through these restaurants that they own. It's also a justice-driven restaurant that workers can earn living wages and the model centers equity over profit. So this is a model that fuses ⁓ some of these trends that I'm gonna talk about in the future ⁓ section, but...

economic justice, public-private collaboration, color and innovation. It reflects several trends that are shaping the future with this place-based community development and supporting first-time entrepreneurs, these social enterprises as anchors of local resilience. And so I thought that was an interesting one to talk about, ⁓ and I'll touch on this a little bit more ⁓ further on in the episode. But I picked a quote from one of the chefs there, Nafi Flatley.

founder of Taranga, Senegalese food stall there at La Cochina. And the quote goes, when I serve Senegalese food, I'm not just sharing flavors, I'm sharing my identity, my story, my home. La Cochina gave me a platform, but more than that, it gave me dignity. that was just like music to my ears.

Seyi (21:29)
It is, it is. I really don't have any comments other than to say what a fascinating approach to space or restaurant space and the impact it can have ⁓ on the community, but also the small businesses. Again, we come back to the small businesses that will now get a shot at becoming something.

Reza (21:56)
Yes.

Seyi (21:56)
for

the owners as a result of this initiative. So thanks for sharing that. And it ties right into the laws. ⁓ While we will mention the law that is around public spaces fostering social cohesion, while restaurants aren't quite public spaces, but based on the examples you've shared, the owners of the restaurants can make them public spaces to enable

the social cohesion that is critical for resilient cities. Accessible, well-designed spaces, and accessible being the operative word here, are essential for.

fostering community interaction, civic engagement, and social cohesion. And this comes from White's research in 1980, where him and his fellow researchers demonstrated the importance of public space design in the study, the social life of small urban spaces, which is really what restaurants are. And when we don't have these spaces, there's lack of social interaction.

reduced social interaction, a decreased sense of community and potential increases in crime. And I'll go back to the ghost kitchens again. We could all order food from faceless places, but there was zero social interaction. And that is critical for any business to thrive. And more importantly, for the cities that house those businesses to thrive as well.

Reza (23:20)
Mmm.

Yes.

Seyi (23:39)
The second law, which is like bang, bang on squarely in the space of this ⁓ episode is that local economic development builds resilience. Again, ⁓ diverse locally rooted economies and what else expresses that as much as restaurants in cities, enhance the urban resilience and provide

equitable economic opportunities for residents as evidenced by Lacochina, period. I couldn't say it any better than the case you've just shared. And this comes from research by Jacobs, 1969, emphasizing the importance of, and when I say Jacobs, I say it.

expecting all our listeners will know it's Jane Jacobs I'm talking about. So I hope you all know she's one of our favorite people for our new listeners. And in the economy of cities, she talks about the importance of diverse local economies for urban vitality. And when we don't have that, when we over rely on chain restaurants or large corporations, it makes cities vulnerable to economic shocks and

It limits the opportunities for small businesses and entrepreneurs in the city.

Reza (25:04)
Yeah, I think that's a really good, ⁓ that local economic development one is a really good encapsulation of my strategic foresight, Shay. So really glad that you selected that law because what's ahead for the future of eating out and restaurants. And really it is, you know, it's intersecting these broader urban trends that we have been talking about, sustainability, labor rights, affordability, cultural cohesion.

And we have to find these local economic issues that will build that resilience, as you just mentioned. And so I'm gonna start over here by picking three quotes from ⁓ folks to people that are thinking and talking about the future of restaurants and cities. And then I will have my strategic foresight, I have four points over here that I'm gonna bring up. So I'm gonna start with Kwame Onwouchi.

sorry if I mispronounce, a chef and an author from the Esquire magazine in 2024 said, the restaurant of the future isn't just about great food, it's about impact. How are you feeding your community? How are you paying your people? That's the Michelin star that matters. And I think that's really well said. And then Rohith Agarwala, the New York City Chief Climate Officer at the Urban Foods Future Forum in 2024.

Seyi (26:20)
in the game.

Reza (26:29)
cities need to think of restaurants not just as businesses but as key nodes in the local food system. That means regulating them with climate goals in mind and supporting those that serve public good. So that's like the sustainability angle from a chief climate officer, which I think is fantastic. And then Dr. Nendure, the NYU food studies professor on 2024 panel said,

What's shifting is the idea of who gets to be at the center of food culture. The next era is about pluralism. Many cuisines, many identities, many stories, cities that embrace that will thrive. Yeah.

Seyi (27:08)
Absolutely, absolutely.

Those are really just three different lenses on what should be the future of restaurants that really touch on everything we talk about here, the ecological and the economic. It's again, the right balance of those two things to make the system work correctly. So thanks for pulling those.

Reza (27:23)
Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

So then I have, I said four, but there are five predictions for our strategic foresight. The first one, and a lot of these echo what La Cucina is doing in our case study. So community-centered dining, ⁓ we will see a rise in hyper-local community-supported restaurants, cooperatives, nonprofits, work-owned models that prioritize equity and resilience over profit.

and these models may receive increasing support from city governments under the banal of social infrastructure. So cities could support these. So that's one. The second one, so there'll be some new ⁓ hybrid model type restaurants that are evolving beyond the fixed format. So food halls combining multiple local vendors like La Cochina, subscription-based dining to pay monthly for regular meals from a local kitchen, or cultural kitchens linked to community centers, artist spaces, or flex spaces that host a cafe by date.

by day and event venue by night. So that's the second one. The third one is around sustainability and resilience. ⁓ Because food systems account for a major share of urban emissions, what we will see is more plant forward menus as default options, zero waste kitchens and circular food practices. We've talked about the circular economy, regulation on packaging and food waste, like for example, New York's new commercial composting mandates.

and climate adaptation, especially for cities facing heat, flooding, and supply disruptions, like how do restaurants play a role in that? And then two more. ⁓ number four, reinventing the labor model. Wages are slowly rising under pressure, but systemic change will really require cities to address affordability for workers. Housing, transportation, childcare. If 10 % of ⁓ our ⁓ labor is working in restaurants, ⁓ this is really...

this is really an important issue. And there's ideas like city funded apprenticeship pipelines to get people into the industry. And then the last one is more sort of digitally oriented. So ⁓ how do we deal with what's going on with technology? So ⁓ how will tech mature for restaurants? So will delivery platforms, ⁓ which we can have some challenges with the ethics around it.

We'd like to see them shift from sort of exploitative models to cooperatively owned delivery systems. And then smart kitchens where you can help restaurants with like AI inventory management, customer personalization, those types of things. We brought up a couple of these things in the future of small businesses episode. So similar to that, to help restaurants. So those are ⁓ the five predictions that I have,

Seyi (30:07)
Yes.

I kept thinking, what can I add to this? It's so awesome. There's really nothing. I will quickly again reiterate the fact that every single one of these strategic foresights falls into either the ecological or the economic lens, all towards working for sustainable cities as a result of just thriving communities.

Reza (30:18)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Seyi (30:43)
And in this case, communities represented by restaurants and what the opportunities they create for business, for just communion, essentially, when you come together to share food and a very environmentally aware approach to creating food for people in these spaces.

Reza (30:55)
Yes. Yes.

Seyi (31:13)
couldn't think of any other way, even the last one around digital inclusion with ethical boundaries. Yes, yes, and yes, and yes to that. So thanks for bringing all this because we, yes, we want technology to improve, for one, the economics of restaurants so they can stay sustainable themselves financially. ⁓ So we're not.

Reza (31:20)
Yeah. Yeah.

Seyi (31:40)
anti-technology, but it should be used with intentionality to ensure it's helping both the owners of the business and the patrons who come to to eat and residents or neighbors who come there to to engage to have the best experiences. I want to quickly touch on I know we're going to touch on our favorite restaurants.

But I want to touch on an experience I had at this, ⁓ food hall. It's called the timeout marketplace in Chicago. And it, Chicago is not the only place that has it. I, that's the only one I've been to, but the idea for timeout food marketplaces, people who live in Chicago probably know this. It is this building, old building in the West loop of Chicago. So.

Reza (32:16)
Mm.

Seyi (32:37)
probably a factory before or a loom because the West Loop and the Fulton Market area was a lot of old buildings that have now become super trendy with a bunch of ⁓ restaurants, condos, even office buildings. But this time out market is a food hall with smaller versions and ⁓ samplings.

of some of the best restaurants in Chicago serving their food and you take the food and you go eat on a bench that is shared with random people.

Reza (33:16)
wow.

Wow.

Seyi (33:19)
As you were talking and reading the future, ⁓ and the technology is in heavy use there because you order from any restaurant there and you immediately get, you don't have to wait to get your food. It will come to you through text or whatever it is. It's just this very tech forward, but very communal space.

Reza (33:38)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Seyi (33:49)
that the first one was started in 2014, if I remember correctly, in Lisbon, Portugal. And as you were reading through, I just kept thinking, and then there's this whole idea of there's a farmer's market not too far away and a bunch of suppliers of the inputs into the food locally sourced in Chicago. And I kept thinking, I think I've experienced something like what Reza is.

Reza (33:54)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Seyi (34:18)
proposing here, it's not quite there yet, but based on the ideas you've shared, but it just reminded me that it's possible and we should aspire to it.

Reza (34:19)
So true. Yeah.

Yeah, it's the direction that we're headed in. Such a good example, Shay. So glad you brought it up because it ⁓ represents many of these ⁓ things that we're looking for in a restaurant. ⁓ So lovely example. ⁓ so that's where we want to close the episode is for us to just have a brief conversation about like ⁓ our favorite restaurants ⁓ and then invite our

Seyi (34:33)
Yeah, yeah.

Yep. Yep.

Reza (34:59)
readers to also share as part of our mailbag, hello at futureforward.fm. so Shay, I was going to pick one from Mumbai and I'm going to pick one ⁓ from Austin, but in Mumbai when I was growing up, right next to my dad's office was a place called Madras Cafe. It was in Udupi, which is a South Indian restaurant, a type of South Indian restaurant. And my dad would eat there almost every day. And so of course he got to know the owner, he got to know the waiters there.

Seyi (35:07)
Please do.

Reza (35:28)
And so whenever I would come there, know, you know, there were some days I'd come and eat with my dad. My school is not very far away. It was like five minutes away from his office. So some days I would come and eat with him. ⁓ And when I come to the restaurant, they were like, ⁓ you know, it's Mr. Shirazi's son, you know, they'd make space for me. It's always crowded. It is a very crowded place. You know, good, basic, ⁓ simple, inexpensive food. And my dad, ⁓ you know, ⁓

Seyi (35:45)
you

Reza (35:57)
was such a well-known patron that I was the son and so they'd always like move me ahead in line and make sure I found a place to eat. that was Madras Cafe is a great part of my memory from growing up in Mumbai. ⁓ And ⁓ the one that I picked from Austin is very similar in feel was a place called Bombay Express. ⁓ The owners no longer own it, the restaurant still exists.

Seyi (36:05)
Yeah.

Reza (36:23)
but we got to know the owner so well and we used to go there almost every weekend. In fact, it was pretty much every weekend, know, every Saturday, Sunday. And if we didn't show up, they'd call us, hey, you know, the kids sick, are you out of town? And we just became very close friends, you know, with them. So, Mayho and Falguni Kapadia, they were the owners. They were such great hosts and such a warm place to, you know, go and feel like...

Seyi (36:33)
Are you okay?

Reza (36:51)
You got a little bit of Bombay there. Got a little bit of our homesickness out and enjoy the food.

Seyi (36:59)
I love that. I'm so glad you shared that example because it also brought to mind for me. So there was no one specific place that I can name, but that experience of getting food from a local small business was absolutely the experience I had. So my dad used to work in central Lagos, Salekko is what it was called.

he worked for one of the banks and his, ⁓ the people in the office would get food from one of the many local bookers is what they call them. U K A. And the food was essentially street food, but you had the same people making the food. And in some cases they lived there and would just use the front of their homes as a restaurant. But, so my dad had a.

Reza (37:53)
Mmm.

Seyi (37:56)
a favorite one that he would send people to go get food for him ⁓ during lunchtime, during work. And then a few years for about 12 months or so between undergrad and post-grad for me, I worked just down the road from where my dad used to work. So I would just go to the same place. And I'm pretty certain they didn't remember me, but I always ordered the same thing.

Reza (38:24)
Yeah.

Seyi (38:25)
And it was just so good. And you could tell that it was a thriving business. Cause if you didn't show up lunchtime was maybe around 11 30 12, you had to show up around 10 30. Otherwise food would be gone by noon. So what you would do is either get there, get the food and take it back to the office to eat or be willing to wait in line. And some days if it was

Reza (38:49)
Yeah.

Seyi (38:54)
meeting with someone and we just wanted to go there. We'd wait in line, have the conversation, have the food, try not to get it on our office clothes. I'm almost certain those still exist there today, 20 something years later. Yeah.

Reza (39:03)
Air clothes.

I love that example. I love that example.

Yeah, so Shay, this is like the call to our listeners to share their stories about their favorite restaurants, hello at futurefour.fm. And you can send that as a voice note, you can send us an email. ⁓ If you send us a voice note, we'll play it happily on here. ⁓ But right before we close, we do have a mailbag.

Seyi (39:35)
Happily.

Reza (39:40)
This week Shay and this is a response to the episode that we did on the future of London ⁓ and Let me read ⁓ What we had in the comments on our YouTube on our YouTube video that was there and I Know this is a great. There's a great little handle angry Ted talks So he said London is a melting pot for immigrants to the UK a patchwork of crowded living for working-class a sprinkling of fancy upmarket areas for the wealthy

Seyi (39:54)
from angry Ted Talks.

Reza (40:08)
a never-ending chain of suburbs, high streets, a hotbed of money-making in a city with shopping and entertainment in the West End. Throughout, the entire history is steeped in history. Discussing King's Cross, the Shard and Cross Tale is not representative London, but of inevitable changes which do not always have positive effect. I lived in Bermondsey just a few minutes from the Shard. My great grandm...

parents lived in Bermondsey, literally for the leather market right by where the shard is now. The area has always been busy and vital to the city, but transport has changed the landscape together with vast development of social housing, ensuring a divide between those that have from those who don't. COVID didn't shape London. The quarantine rules were completely draconian and long gone. So a lot in there, Shay, you know, he packed in a lot of comments for us to chew on. What do you think?

Seyi (41:01)
a lot.

Yeah, it was, so when I first read it, I was like, huh, are you saying we didn't represent London? And then I realized it's impossible to represent London. So yes, you're calling out what was a slice of the experience in London. And then the second comment there was, I was like, you're making a point that we constantly make on this show about how...

Reza (41:17)
Yeah, it is. It is.

Yes.

Seyi (41:34)
the city should serve its residents. And as a tourist now to London, I used to be a resident, but I'm a tourist now, I thought, yes, I probably would have thought the same that some parts of the city, and I did, were strictly being taken over by tourists, honestly, with.

Reza (41:37)
Yes.

Yes.

Seyi (42:01)
the city and the leadership of the city being complicit in that. But that continues to happen. It won't stop. The shard won't be the last sort of touristy ⁓ requirement or building or infrastructure or put in a place like London to attract people to what I will suggest in response to angry Ted talks.

Reza (42:05)
Yes.

Seyi (42:30)
was a needed change to that part of the city. Cause some parts of the city, he said, I believe he said it was a leather ⁓ market, even by our expectations of sustainability and just the need to use less ⁓ exhaust, exhaustive resource use of our.

Reza (42:42)
Let them mark it. Yeah.

Seyi (42:59)
Natural resources, leather being what I'm referring to now. We can't have the center of London being a leather market. That just doesn't work anymore. What it now has though, is a lot more culture in my opinion. And I'm almost certain Angry Ted Talks won't agree with this. It has enough culture that

Reza (43:03)
Yeah.

Seyi (43:27)
people in London, from London, and from outside of London will want to visit and participate in the economic sustainability of that part of the city. So I really loved this comment. It was such a, ⁓ almost a rant, but a very wide rant. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Reza (43:38)
Yeah. Yeah.

Thought provoking. Yeah, it was very thought provoking because it like

it got both of us thinking about like, ⁓ yes, but yes, and? Yeah. And so I think, and you gave a very thoughtful response, Jay. Yes, there's some parts of it that support what we're saying. There's some parts of it that we probably disagree on, but it's just like, I think that's the nature of cities and the nature of this exploration. And I love that we have mailbags like this because again, you know,

Seyi (43:54)
Yes.

Yeah. And? Yeah.

Reza (44:17)
We're curious, ⁓ we love to hear from our listeners and contrast what we're talking about. ⁓ We're there on the ground experiencing something. It came up in our episode with ⁓ Leticia as well ⁓ when she was talking about Mexico and the sort of tourism challenges over there. ⁓ But this is what we do, Shade. This ⁓ is why we love to talk about these topics because it's multi-layered. ⁓

Seyi (44:22)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Reza (44:47)
It has a lot of nuances to it. again, it so fun to do this episode because we explored all these different ways of thinking about eating out and revisited this topic about London. Yeah, so, I don't know, great episode.

Seyi (44:50)
Yeah.

It was. It was.

Yeah. Great episode Reza. Thank you

so much for the research and just the thoughtfulness that always comes with this. we, for our listeners, we hope you feel the same. Please reach out, share your favorite restaurant. Voicenose would be great actually. We'll absolutely play them. And as you share the favorite eating out spot, share a memory that you have about the place that makes it your favorite place as well.

Reza (45:33)
even better.

Seyi (45:33)
Appreciate

listening to that. And as always, we thank you for listening and we look forward to hearing from you and we hope you come back for the next episode. And thanks so much Reza. Bye.

Reza (45:44)
All right. Thanks. Bye.