Future Forward

Seyi (00:01)
Hello, hello, hello Reza. How are you today? I am doing very well. It is another episode of Future Forward.

Reza (00:04)
I'm good Seyi how you doing?

Yeah, and this one is another edition, another city edition episode. ⁓ And this was your travel that you recently went to London and Turkey, Antalya and Khmer. And so that's what we're gonna focus on this episode. I'm very interested because this is a part of the world that I don't know a lot about. And so very curious to hear what you're gonna share. hey, before we jump in, I'm gonna welcome our listeners. Thank you for our regular listeners.

Seyi (00:15)
Yes.

Reza (00:39)
We continue to grow a lot of folks listening to Future Forward and welcome to our new listeners ⁓ that have just joined us. Future Forward is a conversation that Shay and I have been having for many years that we've been talking about cities and we've been, we so enjoyed those conversations over the 10 years at Hot Chocolate and multiple Hot Chocolate at Starbucks. And we decided, okay, let's do a podcast and let's talk about these things with

Seyi (01:02)
Yes.

Reza (01:08)
other folks. And really, this is driven by curiosity. We pick a topic and we do a deep dive on that particular topic. In this case, this is a city. And we always start with the history to ground us and where things came from. We talk about the present and then we provide some strategic foresight into the future and all of it through the lens of our 21 laws of cities. So we bring that up and

And this has been, you know, these 21 laws, Sheyi, has really helped us as we've traveled to bring this unique perspective to viewing the cities that we traveled to. And so the City Edition is a continuation of that exploration of how do the cities that we actually visit and experience doing with these laws that we've come up with.

Seyi (02:02)
It's so true Reza. It's made for our listeners. It doesn't make going to a city academic for us. It actually makes it more of the exploratory. What are we curious about in this city that we're in right now? And even in conversations with friends, as I go to these cities, it enriches the conversation. I don't outright tell them the laws, but it's always...

somewhere at the back of my mind as I experienced the city. yeah, it was evident when we were in Turkey, two cities, adjoining cities really, adjoined cities, Antalya, which is the bigger city and Kamiya, which is a small town that honestly you don't know when you've entered it coming from Antalya. And I will say that

similar to you Reza, it was a part of the world I had never been. Was super excited to visit with some friends, very good friends a few weeks ago. We spent a few, just about a week there and it was fantastic in just the, how organic the whole place still felt, even as it was becoming more modern.

So I'll start from the historical context here. And the history of Antalya, these two cities trace their roots back to ancient times. ⁓ Antalya was founded and it was known as Atalya around 150 BC. And it was ⁓ by King Atalos II of Pergamon. And it became an important Roman city.

Interestingly, and later Byzantine stronghold was known for its port bustling port and significant historical architecture, including ⁓ Hadrian's Gate. And Hadrian's Gate, for those who don't know, I had to find out myself as well, is this historic triumphant ⁓ arc located in Antioch. And it was built to commemorate a Roman emperor.

We've talked about this before Reza, the significant buildings and the center of cities or the most critical infrastructure in cities actually come from, from historical cities anyway, come from the egos of the ruling class. ⁓ And that was the comment that came to mind as I was learning about this. And it served as, ⁓ it was built to commemorate the Roman emperor in

Reza (04:45)
Yeah.

Seyi (04:56)
is visit in 130 AD and it served as the eastern entrance to the old town of Calici. I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. And it's still a prominent landmark in Antalya known for its three arches, decorative marble columns, and it was part of the city walls incorporated into the gate as you entered into the city.

And Khmer, which was the smaller town slash city right by Antalya, ⁓ used to be known as Idyros. ⁓ And it holds traces of Lycian and Roman civilizations as well, with also being a coastal settlement. ⁓ And it was significant ⁓ in its longstanding importance as a coastal settlement as well as

close as it was to Antalya. This coastal nature ⁓ was quite useful for these towns and cities because that is where the business was happening. ⁓ We've talked about this, that most cities, most big cities are either ecologically or economically tied to bodies of water. And these cities were no different back then.

had a population of about 2.6 million people bustling bazaars and marketplaces. They had ⁓ a lot of activity because it was port based essentially in historic times, but also in present time. I'll pause here because there's a lot I can share about the present day situation in Antalya and Khmer, but

That I think provides us a little bit more of the context around what these cities were back then.

Reza (06:59)
Yeah, fascinating. ⁓ I just didn't imagine a ⁓ city of 2.6 million that I hadn't heard about, but it's a part of the world that we just don't know enough about. so your historical ⁓ thread that you brought on there about Hadrian's Gate, I know about Hadrian's Gate. I studied it in history. didn't know it had to do with Antalya. Poor memory on that. ⁓ But like you said, these

Seyi (07:07)
Yep.

Yeah.

Reza (07:29)
know, these arches, these monuments, ⁓ you know, usually for the conquering or the ruling class reminds me of the, you know, the gateway of India and Mumbai, which was built, you know, to welcome King George when he came to visit Mumbai. ⁓ But yeah, this is, it's fascinating. can't wait for you to keep going on this, Jay, because this, ⁓ I'm curious how this, such a historical city, you know, Roman, Byzantine, ⁓ like what's happening in...

Seyi (07:35)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Reza (07:57)
today. What's going on there today?

Seyi (07:59)
Yeah, so before I dive into some of the real facts, I'll add to that that, yes, I hadn't visited before and consequently, the experience of the locals mirrored mine in that I was as much a novelty as an American who grew up in Nigeria as they were novelties to me because ⁓

⁓ Turkey is close to Syria, close to Germany. And those two countries couldn't be any more different, but they border Turkey on either side. And so where we stayed, they had tourists ⁓ from Russia, from Germany, from Syria. And it was just such a...

and a lot of tourists from the UK and the Western part of Europe as well. But again, we don't know much about this place that is for all intents and purposes, such a critical part of everything that's going on in Europe and the Middle East. ⁓ It's the most, it's a secular country.

But it's almost, and this I learned from conversations with the locals, it's about 50 % Christian, 50 % Muslim, but for the most part, it is a secular country, even as people choose what religions they focus on. And it is, we didn't visit Istanbul. It's the most visited of the Turkish cities. And I'm so glad we visited a known,

part of the country, but no less metropolitan as I'll dive into here. So again, the population at some point has exceeded 2.6 million. isn't the locals say it's not quite that right now. They didn't really dive into any reason why, but at some point, yes, it has exceeded 2.6 million. ⁓ A lot of marketplaces, a lot of activity.

Reza (10:14)
Hmm.

Seyi (10:26)
everywhere. There we went around the city and ⁓ you can get on a a tour boat to see around the city around the coast to then experience the city and it felt very much like many hubs in the city so it just felt like ongoing activity throughout the city for different reasons ⁓ and 15 million tourists visit Antalya yearly.

Reza (10:55)
Wow. That's a lot.

Seyi (10:55)
which is crazy, which

is crazy. It's a lot, a lot from Europe, a lot of people in Europe. And I guess it goes back to this conversation you and I have Reza about a slight insularity of being in America. You travel from Texas to California, it's six hours away. from New York to California, it's six hours away, but you're still in the same country, even if.

Reza (11:10)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Seyi (11:24)
things have changed a little bit. And so we almost pay as much attention to stuff going on in the US, unless so to stuff going on outside of the US, especially in a place like Antalya, Turkey, because some of the locals told me, my wife and I were numbers.

one and two of the 10 Americans they will probably see this year, which is just astonishing to me. Yeah. And so it's a lot of ⁓ vibrant local economy. ⁓ Khmer used to be a fishing village, but it's now a very tourist friendly. Most of the resorts are in Khmer because it's not quite in the middle of the bustle and hustle of Antalya itself.

Reza (11:54)
Yeah, that's crazy.

Hmm.

Seyi (12:20)
And so a lot of commercial recreational activity, super vibrant local culture ⁓ everywhere is a testament to Turkey in that sense. So they feel very proud of their local cultures, even as the modernization is going on. Multimodal transportation system, which was amazing for me to experience. You have trains, you have ⁓

a tram system, not covering the whole city, but up to a certain point. And a lot of homes, low, medium, middle income housing in. And for those who watch on YouTube, I'll put some pictures up, but you have what I guess we would probably call brutalist architecture in the sense that it's

brick buildings that go up a few floors, but there were so many of them, but almost always surrounded by some parks and green spaces for people to experience. Or just within view. And I think one of the pictures I'll share shows some of these multi-unit buildings and you come out of your balcony and what you're looking at is a mountain.

with greenery going up the side of the mountain. And at that point, you can't be too upset at your dwelling space, honestly, because you see nature very clearly. There's a huge, huge focus and emphasis on sustainability with, again, I mentioned the multimodal transport network that allows people, if you have cars, you can drive, you can get on the train.

Reza (13:58)
Mm-hmm.

Seyi (14:18)
I saw a bunch of people cycling cause similar to what Letitia told us on the show about, I'm forgetting the city she mentioned. You have ⁓ buildings, then walking spaces in some situations, then bike, then car, then train in the middle of the car lanes. And then the reverse of what I just shared on the other side of the.

of the tracks of the train going in the opposite direction. So you had pockets of that in the city as well, which made for just a more ⁓ human centric experience walking in the city. And I'll just reel off a few things that were quite evident in Antalya and Kamiya today. Almost every home or every building

Reza (14:55)
Yeah.

Seyi (15:18)
had solar heating. It was fantastic to see. There is a lot of mixed use planning of the building. you had ⁓ retail, community spaces, entertainment, all in the same building. ⁓ the ground floor of the buildings would have shops. Going back to Jane Jacobs' eye on the street idea.

Reza (15:46)
Yeah. Yes.

Seyi (15:48)
So I'll pause there because it was both economically and ecologically just felt very right and they seem to have been intentional about it.

Reza (15:57)
Yeah.

Yeah, Shay, this was ⁓ so interesting as you're recapping, I'm thinking back on all the pictures you were sending me and the comments that were going back and forth. we did go back and forth on like the solar water heating. We did talk about, ⁓ you know, the mixed use ⁓ planned developments, ⁓ the housing, which was basic, but done in a way to be ⁓

Seyi (16:07)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yep.

Reza (16:30)
know, good, well-built for the community over there, the green spaces. ⁓ It was so interesting to see ⁓ as you sort of went through the city, your experience just through those pictures, and you've described it so well over here. ⁓ You know, so I'm curious at like other stories that you came across that, you know, ⁓

Seyi (16:58)
enrich the experience. Yeah. Yeah. I'll share two quick stories. ⁓ One about ⁓ the last episode, we talked about eating out restaurants. And one of the stories I heard while I was there was about a place called Ali's Cafe, which is in Khmer. Local cafe. I have a picture. It's not Ali's Cafe, but you can get a sense for what I'm talking about.

Reza (16:59)
Yeah, enrich your experience. I want to hear a little bit about that.

Seyi (17:27)
And it's over 30 years old and it has navigated all of the economic downturns, but it's still there. And COVID, which we mentioned in the last episode on eating out was a huge sort of shock, but Ali's Cafe survived by doing some digital marketing, which is really epic, local deliveries and outdoor seating.

And the community in Khmer, similar to the examples we gave of trying to make sure the business stays, ⁓ alive during COVID, people were eating out even as they could cook themselves. They would go to Ali's Cafe to eat and commune even in the wild and crazy times that we were experiencing during COVID.

And so that was a refreshing story. And this story was actually shared by Engie, who was one of the store owners that we visited with. We walked around and we'd stopped to chat. Not a lot of them could speak English, but Engie could. And it made for a delightful experience in his store. was, ⁓ I'll find a picture and share of Engie's store. It was packed to the brim.

Reza (18:53)
I remember this.

Seyi (18:54)
It was packed,

exactly, was packed to the brim, but he was such a warm and engaging guy that even as it felt like he was trying to sell us stuff, we actually didn't mind. He shared the story of having opened the store a long time ago as well, and not being of means or anything because his wife is a teacher, she teaches special ed.

in one of the local schools there. And his daughter, believe four years old, three, four years old, ⁓ she goes to the same school. So they reduced the cost of living because as a teacher, the wife gets free education for her daughter. And NG was one of the people who said he hadn't met too many Americans and wondered why.

⁓ I had questions about how different American cities are from Khmer and Taye. He sees it on TV, which interestingly, there were very few screens around. wanted to, I almost forgot to mention this. Not many people were buried in their phones. It was so refreshing to experience.

you, you, walked into restaurants and people went on their phones. They were having conversations, Reza. And I think part of it is just, ⁓ to reference NG again, there was a desire to have a conversation, especially I'd say in our case, they don't see many Americans. So they're curious about Americans.

Reza (20:20)
Yeah, yeah.

Mmm.

Seyi (20:41)
And we were curious about them because I'd never been to that part of the world before. But I saw a lot of things that, again, through the lens of the 21 laws, made it very refreshing to experience a place where it feels like there's a lot of intentionality about the community and the building and upgrading of the city to serve the people.

Reza (21:09)
Yeah, that's great. I so enjoyed the story when you shared it with me, ⁓ because it was a sort of a testament to how a community is retaining that, ⁓ feeling of being together, ⁓ the absence of screens, the desire to actually not just have a transaction with someone, but get to know someone as you're having a transaction. think I talked about that in Mumbai episode, ⁓ which is like such a different

Seyi (21:35)
Yes, you did.

Reza (21:40)
⁓ feeling of, you know, every transaction, no matter how ⁓ simple it is, if you retain that humanity to it, it makes it a richer experience. And it sounds like that's what you had over there. And, ⁓ you know, this is what helps a city, ⁓ you know,

Seyi (21:52)
Yep.

Reza (22:06)
thrive, ⁓ it's those connections that helps you with that resilient ⁓ emotional state that Christem Gede brought up in that episode where we talked about resilience. When you have those meaningful connections, you have this better feeling and you reduce your stress and you have a better life as a citizen. I think that's just a fantastic example of what those types of cities that

Seyi (22:16)
Yes. Yes.

Yeah.

Reza (22:36)
inspire that or citizens that do that, what the result could be.

Seyi (22:41)
Yes, no, I totally agree. And again, I just mentioned we experienced the city through the lens of the law. So there are three you've picked that absolutely highlight the value of the laws, I'll say, but also it has a lens for experiencing places.

Reza (22:54)
Yeah.

Yeah, so I picked law number nine, which is urban greening enhances resilience. you talked about both Antalya and Kamar used natural landscapes, greenery to increase the resilience that climate challenges bring us. They're preserving their biodiversity in that area. They're improving citizens' health and quality of life by being able to have these green spaces around them.

And this law, number nine, comes from the research by Wolk and others in 2014 that reviewed the multiple benefits of urban greening for sustainability and public health. So that's the first one. Then the next one is law number 10, where we posit the sustainable transportation improves livability. And so what you saw in Antalya and Khmer is these eco-friendly transport infrastructures.

Antalya, mentioned, a tram. Camero had these pedestrian friendly roads. And so this is really enhancing that urban livability, that sustainability that that city needs. And our research on this comes from Severo in 1998 that established this concept of a transit metropolis and its benefits for urban sustainability. ⁓ So critical part of how do you make a city more sustainable?

And then the last one that I picked over here Shay is number five, which is mixed land use enhances urban vitality. I think we talked about this a lot. You brought up a lot of great examples of how that integrated planning in both the cities promotes that economic and social vibrancy through the diverse and accessible communal spaces. know, Ali's Cafe, Engie's shop. And you know, all of this comes from, you know, one of our favorite researchers, one of our favorite authors, Jane Jacobs in 1961 that highlighted

the importance of mixed use neighborhoods for urban vitality. And that's from her seminal work, The Death and Life of Great American Cities, you the eyes on the street, we've talked about it multiple times on episodes. But I remember seeing in your photographs as like one of the first exchanges that we had on text was just seeing the shops and the ground floor, the different spaces, there was a pharmacy there, there was another sort of community space in another area, like all of that in this area that you can see sort of.

Seyi (25:13)
Yeah.

Reza (25:21)
creates that vibrancy ⁓ for that street life that you look for in a city.

Seyi (25:26)
Yeah. Your comment was this is built for human scale. I think that was your, it was such a good, good sort of summation of what, what you were seeing in the picture and what we were experiencing. You were at human scale and it felt like in the Asian times when there were no cars, they tried to maintain that ⁓ livability for people, even as modern transportation and cars have come in.

Reza (25:30)
Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Thanks for reminding. Yeah.

Yes.

Yes.

Seyi (25:56)
⁓ And it was human skill without a doubt.

Reza (26:01)
Yeah.

So Shay, let's talk about the future. I we don't know much about this city. So what are your thoughts? Like, what do you think the future will bring?

Seyi (26:09)
We don't.

Yeah. So it's

such an interesting one. We do these strategic foresights with a view based on knowing some things and then seeing some gaps and truth be told, again, I was a tourist, was there for about a week or so. So I will not purport to, to,

decide what the future should look like for Antalya and Kemea. But I'll say they're doing a lot of things correct. It's maybe the, and if there's any, any suggestions I would have, it would be for this, leadership and the people and the communities to just keep doing what they're doing. It's very friendly to, to outsiders while also still maintaining a strong cultural identity.

⁓ for itself. ⁓ the leadership of these two cities, towns ⁓ aim to become leading examples of sustainable urban development with transportation being a key part of that. There are plans to expand green public transportation options with electric buses to replace some of the fossil fuel buses that currently exist.

some autonomous vehicles with the idea being ⁓ for people to spend less time in traffic. It'll be interesting to see how that goes considering as you and I know, cities that are not as ⁓ more organic cities lend themselves to ⁓ less, less strict rules and logic, which is what a robotaxis and

⁓ electric robotaxis will need. So it'll be interesting to see how that plays out. But I say yes to the continued expansion of the multimodal forms of transportation. As I mentioned, a lot of solar heating, it was just astonishing to see every building using solar ⁓ to heat and power the modern conveniences that

Reza (28:28)
Yeah.

Seyi (28:35)
We all rely on more of that, obviously, as expected. Lots of sunshine. Why don't we just use it for solar power and to serve people at all income levels in the city. They had a lot of mixed use development, again, leading to the vibrancy and vitality and blending residential, commercial, cultural, recreational.

I was walking down the street and ⁓ behind one of the ATMs, standalone ATM, was a park, a small park with a swing. And then right behind it was this ⁓ VR experience center. And there was a kid sitting on, not the swing, but the park bench. And the mom was walking past and I just thought.

More, please, more, you know? And more of that is sort of ⁓ what is proposed for these towns. And ⁓ I'll wrap up by saying just this deep community orientation is going to be, I hope, a critical future, part of the future of Antalya and Camille, even as they open up to tourism, just holding on to what makes the place what it is.

And as it modernizes, it retains its culture as well.

Reza (30:08)
Yeah, I love how you took a trip to a part of the world that you didn't know a lot about, but you captured so much of what was good about it. And in this strategic foresight section, just saying, hey, more of this is going to be beneficial. So I really love how you captured all of that and sort of called out ⁓ where.

these things can continue to help that community thrive and continue to make it a vibrant place that it is. I I think after listening to this episode, I'm not probably not the only one that's listening that say, mean, I'd love to go to this place and experience it as well. ⁓ Yeah, it's not just the history that you brought up in the start, which makes it a fascinating place, but it's also ⁓ created a city that

Seyi (30:50)
Yes, I hope so.

Reza (31:05)
is working and thriving ⁓ and is, you know, with our 21 laws, we see some of these ⁓ good practices around transportation, around greening, around mixed use in a way that is helping that energy use. ⁓ You know, I remember the text that, you you send me so many pictures of these solar water heaters and I was like, wow, this is unbelievable to see how much they're doubling down on what is a

Seyi (31:20)
around energy use, yeah.

Reza (31:35)
you know, what is a pretty, you know, not super high tech, but a very, very low tech way of creating a sustainable advantage for themselves with what they have naturally. So just a fantastic episode. So interesting, Shai. So not on the typical path, like, you know, it's not London, it's not Mumbai, it's, we talk about Chicago, we talk about Austin, but this is a very, thank you for doing this. This is so, so interesting.

Seyi (32:03)
Thank you. No, I thoroughly enjoyed my time there and going back and forth with you and sending the pictures, it was clear we had to do something. So excited that we got to do it. And I hope our listeners enjoy it as well.

Reza (32:13)
Yeah.

Yeah, and you know, ⁓ with that Jay, ⁓ you know, a call to our listeners that, you know, if you have been there, ⁓ send us a mailbag on it, or if you're curious about something about Antalya and or Khmer, please send that in. Hello at future4.fm. We love to hear mailbags, not just on this topic, but any topic that you think is interesting. If you have another city that you live in, where you see

this, ⁓ you know, the city doing this well. We'll choose that as an episode to do a little deep dive city edition as well. And as we always say, you know, please, you know, rate and review, like and subscribe. ⁓ We continue to grow ⁓ with listeners all over the world. We have listeners in 25 countries. love when I love saying that because it makes me happy that we do, ⁓ that we appeal to folks ⁓ in multiple places. ⁓

Seyi (33:11)
It's amazing. Yeah.

Reza (33:18)
And so ⁓ with that, Shai, ⁓ we come to an end, fantastic episode. Thanks for sharing. Thanks everyone for listening. And we can't wait to see you on the next one.

Seyi (33:30)
Yes, thank you and bye for now.

Reza (33:32)
Bye.