Future Forward

Seyi Fabode (00:01)
Hello, hello, hello Reza, how are you? I am doing well. I am still buzzing from stadium experience last night and we're about to dive into an episode of Future Forward titled The Future of Stadiums.

Reza (00:03)
I'm good Seyi how you doing?

Yeah, so we went to a really good Austin FC game last night. They played the Vancouver Whitecaps and ⁓ we talked about going to the game many, many times. We've both been at, you you've come with your family, I've come with my son, Zal, but we've not sat together. And so we got to sit together and we got to talk about the game and we got to talk about the stadium. And now we're going to talk about stadiums to our audience. as ever, you know, those of you watching on YouTube, I got my Austin FC jersey on.

Seyi Fabode (00:41)
Yeah.

Reza (00:47)
You got your Arsenal Gunners jersey on. ⁓ so we're just ready, So yeah, let's welcome our listeners and then I'll jump in.

Seyi Fabode (00:49)
Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

I've right into it. Yeah. So for our new listeners, welcome. Thank you for joining us for future forward and for our regular listeners. You guys know we're always happy to have you on listening and joining what has been a conversation that prior to the one year we've spent recording the podcast, Reza and I would meet up and talk about cities, sustainability in cities.

the events and the history of our cities and how it impacts the day to day, the current and present day of our cities and especially the city we both ⁓ call home. And we then dive into what we like to call strategic foresight about what might happen, what would be great towards this goal we have for cities to build thriving communities and sustainability.

We focus on both the economic and the ecological elements of cities. So welcome, thanks for joining us. And as we've already sort of mentioned, Reza will be diving into the future of stadiums today. So take it away, Reza.

Reza (02:13)
Yeah, Seyi this is an interesting topic because we've done an episode on sports. ⁓ We did an episode on third places. I think that was episode 15. And this one is a deep dive into stadiums, which is a third place for sports. It's a place of belonging. It's a place of community. And stadiums ⁓ have a history to them. They've always told a story, but it's not just about sport, but it's about civic identity, power, public aspiration.

You know, we know about the Roman Colosseum where emperors entertained and the masses and they showcased their imperial might. ⁓ And then we had these mid 20th century civic stadiums in the United States that were built to house professional teams and you know, the fandom that comes with it. So they've really long served, ⁓ they have long served as symbols of urban ambition. ⁓ And these concept of stadiums go back.

to the Greeks ⁓ with the stadium at Olympia in 776 BC, which hosted the original Olympic games. Then you had Rome's Colosseum and ADAD. It accommodates 50,000 spectators. It accommodated 50,000 spectators for gladiatorial contests. So these early venues established this blueprint for gathering spaces and it transcended more ⁓ than just functionality of a stadium and it became symbols of

Civic pride then you had the Industrial Revolution where you could build using steel You could use modern designs in the 20th century saw purpose-built venues emerged the Fenway Park in 1912 footballs Wembley Stadium in 1923 In the US you had stadiums in the 60s and 70s. They were cookie-cutter stadiums like Veterans Stadium in Philadelphia or RFK Stadium in Washington DC and there were multi-purpose publicly funded

They reflected a desire to host as many events as possible under one roof. And then if you look globally, stadiums often doubled as national statements. Mexico City's Estadio Azteca opened in 1966. It was a beacon of Latin American sporting pride. Tokyo's national stadium hosted the 64 Olympics as part of Japan's post-war rebranding. But by the late 90s and 2000s, the game changed. Cities began to...

really compete for sport franchises. They wanted mega events like the Olympics, the World Cup. Public-private partnerships began to dominate stadium finance. Architecture started to take center stage. The Bird's Nest, Herzog and Muran's Bird Nest in Beijing for the Olympics, or all these ⁓ large retractable roof marvels ⁓ that have been built around the US for NFL teams. ⁓ And so it has been an interesting evolution to

get us to where we are today with stadiums.

Seyi Fabode (05:09)
Yeah, it's such a fascinating idea, this purpose-built spaces for people to come and convene to witness an event. And some of my early memories go back to, I grew up in Lagos, Surulere, Lagos, and in the 70s,

When Nigeria got a bunch of money from the oil boom, the national stadium was one of the things that was built. It was this symbol of national pride. It was not too far from where we lived. And it was one of the few places in Lagos where people from across all walks of life could go and watch a sport and...

Reza (05:47)
interesting.

interest

Seyi Fabode (06:04)
football, soccer as it's called in the US, football as it's called everywhere else in the world, was the main sport played there, but it was as much a place of pride and community as it was this huge edifice that was in Leroy Liger. So all these elements that you mentioned, even in the progression of stadium and stadia across the world is very...

reflective of my experience, my personal experience going up as well.

Reza (06:37)
Yeah. And you know, what you touched on there, Seyi, which is, you know, Nigeria got some money. It was able to invest in the stadium. It became the symbol of pride. And this is the two topics that I want to touch on ⁓ as we talk about the present day, know, stadiums being part of the urban fabric and really, ⁓ you know, the first I want to touch on the economics. It's deeply contested about, you know, whether it actually, you know, has a good economic impact on cities.

And then the second I will touch on the community impact because it's a story of belonging. And so let's look at some stats about economics. They represent a massive investment. They have significant economic implications. The U.S. market, if we look at it, the sports venue market generates approximately $17.5 billion annually. A construction cost of an average NFL stadium today is $1.1 billion. Major League Baseball, $500-800 million.

the Major League Soccer, two to 400 million. The global stadium industry is expected to reach 53.3 billion by 2030 with an average annual growth rate of 4.7%. So sports and stadiums are this growing economic engine, but they're trade-offs. So let's talk, one more thing before trade-offs is what are the economic benefits?

that come from it. You have job creation. With every stadium, you have one to 3,000 construction jobs, and then you have 15 to 2,000 permanent positions at the stadium itself. It has an annual economic impact, about 2 500 million per major venue. And you have tax revenue that comes from it if they're not ⁓ doing tax write-offs for those billionaires. But you have about 10 to 30 million annually for the cities that have those stadiums.

Seyi Fabode (08:23)
Excellent, yeah.

Reza (08:32)
But there are trade-offs, which is, ⁓ according to the Brookings Institution, more than 30 billion in public funds has gone towards stadium construction in the US since 2000. That's a pretty large sum of money. ⁓ But studies from economics like Judith Grant Long and Roger Knoll suggest that stadiums rarely generate net new economic activity. They ⁓ state that it's often redirecting local spending from elsewhere into the city.

The average modern US stadium now costs a billion. I mentioned that a little earlier with the taxpayer typically footing 40 to 60 % of the bill. It's a pretty large portion. An ⁓ example of, a global example, ⁓ the 2022 World Cup in Qatar cost over 6.5 billion. And it raised a ton of questions about labor rights, long-term utility, post-event, all those fancy stadiums. What were they gonna be used for?

It's kind of a fraught situation with economics. ⁓ Shane, before I jump to the community part, ⁓ I think you have some comments here.

Seyi Fabode (09:37)
I do, I do. I distinctly remember a few years ago, I believe this was before COVID, driving one day and this whole topic about the Nashville Titan Stadium, where it was shown that, and I'm saying, I mentioned Nashville specifically because the conversation that was being had on that radio show was,

about $2 billion was going to go to building this stadium. And about half a billion of that was going to come from a contribution by, I believe, either the city or the state, most likely the state. But at the same time, a bunch of programs had been cut from the city of Nashville on the education side of things for the kids. So there was this conversation about

What is the point of giving half a billion dollars for a stadium and essentially not educating our kids? And so this point you're making about the fraught trade-off that exists when we build this stadium in our cities. And there many examples. The Nashville Titans one, Tennessee Titans one popped into mind because I'd heard it when I was reading through your show notes.

Reza (11:02)
Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (11:04)
I'd heard it on the radio and then I dug in and apparently it's not the only place. Las Vegas, Chicago, the MetLife Stadium in New Jersey, all of these have been funded partially by the cities because of this expectation of economic returns to the city.

Reza (11:23)
Yeah, yeah.

And so that's really, really good examples, Seyi, and I'm gonna pick two case studies where we will dive into this a little bit more. But that economic trade off that you mentioned, there's a community aspect to stadiums, and I wanna touch on that, because I think there's a lot to be said over here that's positive. despite these financial criticisms, ⁓ these stadiums serve as emotional and cultural hubs.

Seyi Fabode (11:44)
Yep.

Absolutely.

Reza (11:52)
Yeah, they become places where cities, you know, forge their identities, where, you know, citizens, different backgrounds, they unite behind a local team. There's a concept of a stadium district that is, you know, that has evolved now, including green spaces, community use fields, local retail, and it aims to integrate stadiums into the urban rhythm rather than isolate them. And we'll touch on this when we talk about the two case studies. But there are really three things over here that I want to talk about community and belonging. First, stadiums as cultural anchors.

⁓ For immigrant communities, diasporas, long-rooted residents alike, sports can be a cultural bridge. Soccer in particular, I have a lot of soccer examples in this episode because we love it. Soccer has become a powerful symbol of this. In cities like Austin, Atlanta, Seattle, and Los Angeles in the US, soccer-specific stadiums have drawn incredibly diverse crowds, very different than other stadiums. And I love that. Atlanta United's fan base is one of the most multicultural in the MLS.

Seyi Fabode (12:32)
Go for it.

Absolutely.

Reza (12:51)
These stadiums create safe spaces for expression, ritual, connection, and that sense of identity radiates into surrounding neighborhoods. Globally, cities like Rio de Janeiro that has the Maracanha ⁓ or Camp Nou in Barcelona, they aren't sports venues. They're cultural monuments. They have museums. They honor local legends. They serve as pilgrimage sites,

Seyi Fabode (13:15)
Absolutely.

Reza (13:16)
They provide this thread of continuity in cities that undergo a lot of change. You have your team and all the legends that come with it that serve. So that's the first thing. The second is, and you've touched on this before, Seyi, which is youth identity, ⁓ memory making. Stadiums play a pivotal role in shaping youth experience. ⁓ You've talked about ⁓ youth soccer, youth development, youth sports in our sports episode.

know, high school championships, affordable upper deck seats, these venues create memory capital. I love this phrase, a reservoir of stories, first games, family traditions that tie people to places. Like Zal and I go for our Austin FC game. We get our taco from one taco. We have our routine and we love doing it. So some stadiums directly invest in this ⁓ Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, which I'm gonna talk about in the case study.

Seyi Fabode (13:49)
Absolutely, yeah.

Thank

Reza (14:10)
They've run youth apprenticeship programs, local football academies, community sports nights. They recognize that the stadium isn't just for spectators, it's for development too. In the U.S., I love this story, Allianz Field in St. Paul has become a gathering point for the city's East African immigrant communities. Minnesota United has leaned into that identity, organizing cultural nights, translated materials, and is actively partnering with those local organizations. So it's not just outreach, it's co-creation that they're doing there.

Seyi Fabode (14:37)
That's amazing.

Reza (14:38)
And then the last point over here is the design for civic inclusion for communities. So not all stadiums foster this belonging as well as some do. ⁓ And so a lot depends on how they're integrated into their cities. And a key trend today is to shift from those isolated stadiums surrounded by parking lots, urban is called the stadiums in a moat, ⁓ to where stadiums embedded in walkable mixed use districts, mixed use are one of our favorite laws.

⁓ Cities offer these public plazas, open green spaces, year-round amenities. Q2 Stadium in Austin is a good example. ⁓ While it's primarily a sports venue, it was designed with public access in mind, including community use days, a flexible plaza space, or farmers markets, or cultural events. ⁓ The design doesn't wall itself off. It brings the community and brings people in, welcomes them. ⁓

I mean, the contrast is some mega projects, those led side, ⁓ you know, solely by private developers, they can become exclusive zones, expensive ticket prices, luxury suites, VIP only access, and really create the sense of division and true belonging can exist ⁓ without this physical and economic accessibility. So it's, you know, there's a lot to be said about what a stadium can do for a community. ⁓ And ⁓ yeah, you're nodding all the way through, Seyi. So I think you have a lot of comments here.

Seyi Fabode (16:01)
Yeah,

I'm so glad you've framed the ecological. That's how we frame the community element of this in these three buckets, because as I was reading through and you were going through, I have like three examples for each one, and I'll touch on them super quickly. And I'll start with the design for Civic Inclusion 1. So ⁓ you'll be going to Atlanta in a few days. My last

Reza (16:08)
Yes.

Seyi Fabode (16:30)
two trips to Atlanta, I stay close to Mercedes-Benz Stadium and I've shown you some pictures of it. On the east side of the stadium, you would think someone drew a line and decided to not develop anything on that side, while on the other side, there's been a lot of work that's gone to making Mercedes-Benz Stadium look like the majestic... ⁓

Reza (16:35)
Yes.

Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (16:59)
infrastructure it is. there's been, in my opinion, there has been no real design for civic inclusion, even if ⁓ the activities that happen in the stadium tend to bring together an amazingly diverse crowd. Everyone knows this about the stadium in Atlanta. Youth identity and memory making. of my youth development in soccer is the thing that is giving me the most

Reza (17:06)
Mm.

Seyi Fabode (17:29)
joy in terms of sports right now and the Dell Diamond which in Round Rock Texas it is used for a lot of activities for kids there's been this conscious decision for to make that stadium a part of the fabric of the city and even the car park at Dell Diamond becomes the

during the winter when there's not much sports going on. The car park becomes where the city fair happens. So the Ferris wheels and all the stuff are right by Del Daman. So it's such, and then the lights that go on in the city are also right by there as well. And yes, there's, I've been to Camp Nou and it is an experience. You don't even have to be watching soccer in the place.

Reza (18:27)
Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (18:28)
to realize this is something majestic and deeply, deeply embedded with a lot of stories and history there. So yeah.

Reza (18:38)
Yeah,

Yeah, those are great examples, Seyi. And, you know, to continue this thread of trying to sort of pick examples of stadiums, I have two case studies. One is Q2 Stadium, our stadium, and the other is Tottenham Hotspur Stadium in London. So Q2 Stadium opened in 2021. It's a

Seyi Fabode (18:55)
stadium.

Reza (19:08)
20,738 seat home of the Austin FC. it's a, it's it's a really, it's a landmark of urban design. It's, it was built with private financing from pre-court sports ventures for a quarter billion dollars. And it represents a shift away from large public subsidies. So this was, you know, not, not with tax dollars. It sits on city owned land with a lease agreement that gives the city rent free use for up to nine community events per year.

And so it's a really good model of shared civic use, I think is really well done. ⁓ So some key impacts, it's located in North Austin. The stadium has catalyzed development in a previously underutilized area. We'll talk about that. It's generated 400 million in estimated annual economic activity according to a 2023 report by the Austin Chamber of Commerce. It integrates transit, ⁓ access, walkability, shaded public plazas. ⁓ And it also contributes both, ⁓ you know,

Seyi Fabode (19:37)
Yeah.

Reza (20:03)
environmental sustainability and community vibrancy. You know, from the environmental standpoint, it's the only soccer-based stadium to be a true gold certification, meaning that 90 % of waste is diverted, ⁓ which is a big, big deal. And I have a quote here from Andy ⁓ Lugane, president of Austin FC, and this is from Austin Monitor. Q2 stadium isn't just a soccer venue, it's become a gathering place for all of Austin.

Seyi Fabode (20:15)
Amazing.

Reza (20:32)
We wanted this to be a stadium that reflects the community, welcomes everyone and brings people together year round. So it really highlights this intentional focus that Q2 has on community belonging. And it reinforces this idea that modern stadiums are more than just sport. And we feel that, Shai, when we go there, right?

Seyi Fabode (20:40)
Yep.

Absolutely,

we do. And a quick shout out here to Litzy, who is a marketing person. She is, she also works at Austin FC and she had these like detailed facts to share with us about the stadium. And it's thank you, Litzy, pretty, pretty cool. Yes, it, I, I've been to a lot of football, stadia, soccer.

Reza (21:06)
Yes, thank you.

Seyi Fabode (21:19)
stadium and there's something special that's developed at Austin FC so quickly that reflects all the things you've mentioned about the stadium. One quick example I'll give, a friend of ours, their baby was born with some kidney ⁓ issues and born early. Every year, Austin FC ⁓

hosts an event at the Q2 stadium for all the kids that might have ⁓ been in the queue, the emergency unit, and have some disease ⁓ issues that they're dealing with, that they're still dealing with, and they host the families. And it's like a fair that is in partnership with, I believe, St. Jude's Hospital, which sponsors ⁓ Austin FC as well.

Reza (22:06)
Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (22:19)
And that day is one of the days the doctors who treated the kids, the nurses, the families, they all come and just hang out at Q2 stadium. That is one of the days that that family look forward to the most because they get to see and show their kids growth to the people who helped bring those kids into the world. And it is

Reza (22:25)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (22:48)
When they're talking about it, you know, Austin FC has lifelong fans for that reason, for that single reason. So it's pretty awesome. Yeah.

Reza (22:53)
Yes, yes, yeah. Yeah,

I think that's the thing about Q2 Stadium is ⁓ I remember when I first went to a game, I remember before I went to a game, this was like when the team, you know, the first year that it started, I went late in the season and at first I was like, you know, tickets seem expensive, I don't really know. And I remember going to the game and I sat pretty close to the fan section and I was like sold. I was like, my God, the vibe here is so good, the feeling.

Seyi Fabode (23:17)
Yeah.

Reza (23:22)
I saw Austin, I saw the people in the stadium were the people that you see in Austin. ⁓ All of us wearing green and black, all of us feeling like accepted the moment you walk in there, know, all walks of life. ⁓ It was amazing. we were there yesterday, Seyi, and, you know, I always see my friend Carolyn. She's, ⁓ I sit in the same section as she does, you I get to wave to her, I get to chat with her and her family. You saw your friend.

Seyi Fabode (23:24)
Yeah.

Yeah.

All walks of life, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah,

Reza (23:51)
And

Seyi Fabode (23:51)
deep raw, deep raw.

Reza (23:54)
we got the chat for like 20, 30 minutes. was great. It was such a good visit. was like, know, this space has created the ability to ⁓ feel like you're part of something, ⁓ connect with the community that you're with. And then also around the stadium, ⁓ we saw the area being redeveloped. We saw the new train station that

Seyi Fabode (23:56)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Reza (24:21)
that comes into there. And so there are these pieces, know, so all these stats are not, you know, ⁓ theoretical. We see them as we go to the stadium and we can see the impact economically on that area.

Seyi Fabode (24:33)
Yeah.

On that area, absolutely. The sense of belonging that everyone feels when they show up is quite palpable. And that, think, is the... I've taken my boys a few times. ⁓ My first visit to Q2 Stadium was actually Michelle, my wife. She bought us tickets and I genuinely didn't know where we were going.

Reza (25:02)
Ha ha ha.

Seyi Fabode (25:03)
She was like, let's go out, let's hang out on a date. Okay, let's do it, let's do it. And we're coming up to the stadium like, no, you did not just surprise me with a ticket to an Austin FC game. And she was like, yeah, I hope you enjoy it. We had such a great time and ⁓ the sense of belonging, whether you're like a deep football fan or someone who just wants to come and have a great time amongst people who are enjoying themselves.

Reza (25:21)
amazing.

Seyi Fabode (25:33)
It's pretty great. And honestly, some of the time the mood doesn't change regardless of what the team is doing on the field. People just want to be together. And that ⁓ is pretty phenomenal.

Reza (25:44)
Yeah, yes. Yes, yes, yes, yeah. And

that's the thing, I was blown away the first time I went and the fan section, they were singing and dancing the full 90 minutes. Whether the team was winning or losing, they were singing. And I'm just like, this is true fandom. ⁓

Seyi Fabode (25:59)
Yeah. ⁓

Yeah, it is,

it is. And I know you're going to talk about Tottenham as well, but as an Arsenal fan, it hurts me a little bit to hear I was talking about Tottenham, but it is a great example of what is possible. ⁓ the Emirates, well, actually, Highbury before the Emirates was my first international stadium experience. Same thing.

Reza (26:19)
Yes.

Mmm.

Seyi Fabode (26:35)
Same thing. And Arsenal fans have never really been known to be the most boisterous or, but you do feel a certain sense of belonging, whether it was at Highbury, which had low ceilings, so you all felt like super close, or the Emirates, which is a more modern stadium. And one of, again, early dates that I took Michelle on when we lived in London and it was against, it was game against PSG and there were these

Reza (26:45)
Yeah.

Mm. Mm.

Seyi Fabode (27:04)
crazily random PSG and rowdy PSG fans. And Michelle goes, do you really enjoy this? Cause this is wild. I like, I am having a great time. What do you mean? But she gets it. She even wrote about those experiences in a book as well. So yeah.

Reza (27:19)
you

Yeah,

Yeah, and you the reason, yeah, you you're a Gunners fan, absolutely, Arsenal, yeah. The reason I picked Tottenham Hotspur, because it's a good case study, Seyi, of like what happens five years on from when it was first built? Well, now six years. Tottenham Hotspur opened in April 2019. It wasn't just replacing, you know, their beloved first stadium, which was White Hart Lane, but it was heralded as the most advanced stadium in Europe.

Seyi Fabode (27:35)
Yeah.

Absolutely.

Reza (27:52)
cornerstone of a billion dollar urban regeneration project in one of London's most deprived areas, ⁓ Tottenham in the borough of Haringey. ⁓ Now five years on, the results are mixed. And this has some important lessons for cities ⁓ that are looking to stadiums as a tool for urban renewal. So what's worked well? Three things, economic activation and year-round use, the stadium was purpose built for multi-functionality.

Seyi Fabode (28:00)
Haringey.

Reza (28:19)
It hosts Premier League, NFL games, concerts, boxing matches, e-sports tournaments, conferences, and according to the club's annual reports, non-football events have generated over 100 million in additional revenue since its opening. And so it demonstrates the commercial viability of a 365 day venue, a really good example. Architectural excellence is the second thing here, designed by Populous. The stadium includes a retractable pitch to accommodate different games, NFL and soccer, a Michelin star food.

options, a brewery, a skywalk that gives panoramic views of London. It has won numerous awards, including the RIBA London Award in 2021, not just for design, but for urban integration. Three, this is good one, local jobs and apprenticeships. I touched on this Tottenham Hotspur FC committed to hiring locally. Over a thousand jobs have been created in the surrounding areas and more than a hundred apprenticeships have been delivered.

The club is also invested in community-led programs such as the Tottenham Hotspur Foundation, which focuses on education, employment, and youth engagement. Now, there some challenges and unmet expectations from this. ⁓ Gentrification pressures ⁓ was the first one. ⁓ So this borough is one of the most ethnically diverse and economically challenged boroughs in London. And the property prices in Tottenham have gone up by over 50 % since 2015, with local residents increasingly priced out.

Seyi Fabode (29:24)
You

Reza (29:43)
Community groups like the Herringy Defend Council Housing have voiced concerns that the stadium and associated development have led to the displacement of working class residents ⁓ and erosion of affordable housing stock. And so despite these initial promises, many planned affordable housing units in adjacent developments have been reduced or delayed. So that's that's that's been not good. Second point, infrastructure transit on match days, the neighborhood experiences a lot of congestion, overcrowding at stations, increased pollution.

And it raises a question about whether the surrounding infrastructure has really kept pace and improvements to the White Hart Overground Station were delayed. So many residents feel that transport upgrades were prioritized for visitors rather than local use. And there's been uneven distribution of benefits. Critics argue that much of the new economic activity is captured by the stadium and affiliated businesses with limited spillover to the small and local enterprises in that neighborhood. And a 2022 London Assembly report noted that while Tottenham

Hot Spur FC has upheld its direct commitments. The broader regeneration goals promised by local government has fallen short, especially in terms of inclusive economic growth. so, know, a stadium can be a catalyst, but not a cure-all. You know, you need this local governance, a robust local governance system so you can really involve the community and ⁓ tilt this towards, you know, the residents there that are there for the long term and that public infrastructure must proceed and support these large scale

venues not just follow them and stadiums need to be part of a broader equity strategy, not a symbolic anchor on their own. It needs to be part of whatever else you're doing there in the neighborhood.

Seyi Fabode (31:23)
Yeah, no, thanks so much for sharing both the good and the bad of this because ⁓ almost in real time Everton is experiencing a similar thing. Their new stadium, which opens at the beginning of the next ⁓ season, they played the final game at Goodison Park today. Yeah, actually today, earlier before we started recording. And their

Reza (31:45)
They played today. Yeah, yeah, was good as a part, yeah.

Seyi Fabode (31:53)
About 52,000 people will be able to sit at the stadium. But it's in this, ⁓ I believe, Bramley Dock area of Liverpool, which is not historically a wealthy part of the city. And one of the complaints before things have even started is how accessible will this be?

Reza (32:05)
Mm-hmm.

Seyi Fabode (32:22)
for everyone. Will the seats be too expensive? ⁓ They've gone very much towards the sustainability angle with this. So it's a lot of the mixture of good and not so great that you've highlighted. And the Everton Stadium will be another sort of living experiment. The hope we have is they've learned a ton from the Tottenham Stadium because

Reza (32:48)
Yeah, they can

apply it.

Seyi Fabode (32:50)
They

have the benefit of the five year, six year lead time there. And this ties directly to one of our laws, Reza, the, I believe it's our eighth law, which is that public spaces foster social cohesion, accessible, accessibility is one of the big things. Accessible, well-designed public spaces are essential for fostering community interactions, civic engagement.

and just this real need for social cohesion in cities that public spaces can help with. And this learnings come from the research of White and a few other researchers in 1980, which demonstrated the importance of public space design. And this all came out in his book, The Social Life of Small Urban Spaces. And consequence of not doing this the right way,

is what you see in some of the cities we've mentioned, which is that it leads to reduced social interaction, decreased sense of community when people see a stadium that's shown up in their area that they really can't participate in. That leads to just not justifying it, but there will be a sense of resentment to a certain extent. And consequently,

no desire to see the quality of the place upheld. There might be some crime. So we really need to pay attention to when we build these spaces to even if they're private spaces to a certain extent, but they're public in the sense that it is for the people of the city to come enjoy time together, experiencing a sport. So.

I'm very app-lawed. I'm so glad you picked this one for this topic.

Reza (34:46)
Yeah.

Yeah. And you touch on areas that are where stadiums are going, ⁓ which is our strategic foresight section. And I have four predictions of where stadiums can be a better part of the economic fabric of a city and a community fabric of a city. ⁓

So the first one is multi-functionality and 365 day use. So cities demand more than 20 home games a year. Stadiums of the future will have to blend sports with concerts, co-working, housing, green space to really become full-blown entertainment districts and living districts, not just for that few days of sports a year. Two, climate conscious design. ⁓ Expect.

more net zero energy designs, modular architecture, flood resistant foundations, especially in coastal and heat prone cities. And there's a, you know, a COP stadium guidelines that came out in 2024 that pushes for this embedded climate risk planning for stadiums. ⁓ Three, community equity requirements. We've touched on this a lot. You know, ⁓ there are some other good models. ⁓ Oakland's Coliseum Redevelopment Plan. ⁓ You know, they're tying the stadium approval

to community benefit agreements, including affordable housing, job guarantees, and local hiring requirements. And we touched on this when we talked about Tottenham Stadium. Decentralized smaller stadiums. Not every city needs a billion dollar mega structure. Smaller neighborhood based venues like Chattanooga FC's community funded stadium, they're gaining traction providing accessibility without the economic risks. And Austin FC is an example of that too. It's not a super large stadium. It was not publicly funded, but it's a really

Seyi Fabode (36:23)
Yep.

Reza (36:37)
you know, a great part of the economic and community fabric of Austin. Here, you know, two quotes that I wanted to share from experts in the field. ⁓ So the first one, Dr. Victor Matheson, who's a sports economist at the College of the Holy Cross, and this is from ⁓ NPR. We have to stop thinking about stadiums as magic bullets for economic development. The real return on investment comes when these facilities serve the broader public good.

Seyi Fabode (36:42)
Yep.

Reza (37:06)
And he's one of the most cited economists on stadium financing. His research stresses this important of measuring community outcomes, not just the revenue projections. And the second quote I really like as well, Dr. Amanda Burden, who was formerly the New York City Planning Commissioner. ⁓ And she was quoted at the Urban Land Institute panel. And she says, stadiums are among the last places in our city where thousands of people from all walks of life come together with a shared purpose. That's powerful and it needs to be protected.

And this really touches on this theme that we're talking about, of belonging. ⁓ It's a real reminder of that civic role that stadiums can play and should play in our urban fabric.

Seyi Fabode (37:47)
Yeah, no, I genuinely have nothing else to add. That is absolutely what we hope for the stadium. And as the US gets ready to host a bunch of world sports events, global sports events over the next few years, and we're upgrading facilities, building new ones, it absolutely has to be with the mind that these places will be

for the public once these events are done. Otherwise, we would have just put on shows with no real expectation that we're building our communities and that is not sustainable ecologically or economically.

Reza (38:26)
Yes.

Yeah, yeah. I

think ⁓ that's a fantastic point, Shai. And it brings us to the call to action over here, which is, in your city, if you don't go to the stadium in your city, just go to a game, ⁓ go to the stadium maybe for some other activity, observe how well the stadium welcomes you or doesn't.

Think of all the things that we've talked about in this episode and how is that stadium performing in terms of the economic and ecological benefits ⁓ to the city and the community. And send us a mailbag of what your experience was. ⁓ I'm gonna be in Atlanta next week and I'm gonna take a peek at the Mercedes-Benz Stadium while I'm there ⁓ as one of... ⁓

one of the explorations of future forward, future forward traveling or city additions. ⁓ But yeah, Seyi, it was really ⁓ so much fun that we got to be at the game yesterday at Q2 Stadium and ⁓ we had this episode on our list, ⁓ but we moved it up the list because we're like, let's do it while it's fresh on our mind.

Seyi Fabode (39:34)
Yeah.

Absolutely,

absolutely.

Reza (39:54)
And

it's just been so much fun to do it. I had no idea that stadiums had so many factors to consider ⁓ for cities. So it's just been a blast doing it.

Seyi Fabode (40:05)
It has, thanks so much. And again, I'm so glad you sort of pulled this up after the fun time we had yesterday. And again, please listeners share your own experiences, your thoughts about this, because ⁓ I can imagine you've all been to Stadia, even if ⁓ it didn't.

trigger some of the ideas and possibilities and economic and ecological issues that we just highlighted. Now you have the lens, share your thoughts with us. We'd love to hear it. ⁓ You can email us at hello at future4.fm. You can send a voice note. We'll definitely play it on the show. And as always, we're.

Just grateful and thankful that you keep listening. Like, subscribe, share, send this to a friend you know likes sports and we'd love to hear from them as well. So till next time, thank you. Bye.

Reza (41:11)
Thanks everyone, bye.