Future Forward

Seyi Fabode (00:01)
Hello, hello, hello Reza, how are you? I am doing very well today. I am excited for us to dive into today's episode of Future Forward.

Reza (00:03)
I'm good Seyi how you doing?

Yeah, Seyi, we're gonna do an episode about museums and the prime question here is do museums make cities better? ⁓ you know, I love museums. Every city that I go to, I try to visit a museum. That's kind of one of the things that I try to do of the list of things that I do when I go to cities. And so ⁓ I'm excited about this one, Seyi.

Seyi Fabode (00:20)
Yeah.

Thank you.

As you should be, as you should be. Before we dive in, welcome to our listeners, both new and old. To our new listeners, thanks for joining us. We appreciate you spending some of your time with us to learn more about cities and to our regular listeners, thank you for coming back. We again, truly appreciate you always showing up to join this conversation that Reza and I had been having for years and we decided to...

turn it into a podcast. And we have spent a good while now talking about the history of cities, the present day and what is going on now, what the through line is from the history to the present. And then we paint some scenarios for the future, what we like to call strategic foresights. We paint some scenarios for what the future of the city could be all wrapped around

are 21 laws of cities that we've come to as a result of deep research into the experts, authors, and some of the people we've spoken to who thoroughly understand cities. So museums are a critical part of cities as Reza is going to try and show us today. So I'm excited to hear it and I welcome you all.

Reza (01:57)
Yeah, thanks, Jay. Thanks for the welcome to everyone. So today we're gonna turn our spotlight to ⁓ what is now a cornerstone of cultural life in cities, which are museums. And you we did an episode, episode 20, the ⁓ future of art in cities, but we're gonna take a sort of a finer grain lens and talk about museums in specific. know, they've become, museums have become more than just guardians of artifacts. They are now civic anchors.

their educators, their economic engines for cities. And the question we wanna explore is do museums make cities better? Are they essential infrastructure for cities? And so let's touch on the history a little bit before we jump in to what's going on with museums today. And briefly, the public museum emerged during the enlightenment as a tool for democratic education. And the first museum was a British museum. It was founded in 1753.

⁓ It was the world's first national public museum opening its doors free of charge to everyone, to all quote unquote studious and curious persons. ⁓ And so this ideal of universal access really shaped the rise of municipal museums across the 19th century Europe and North America. And these institutions were designed to democratize culture and foster civic identity during these times of rapid urbanization. So it was an interesting way of

sort of keeping culture together as so much was changing in the world. But museums have really been contested spaces because the real question is whose history is getting told and how is that history being told? And so this has really shadowed museums ⁓ for the last few centuries. And this episode, we're gonna sort of explore both the good part about museums as well as the trade-offs that come with it.

Seyi Fabode (03:53)
Yeah, thank you so much for diving into this. I know one or two other people who are big museum fans, but you are the one person I know that every city town you visit, you will go to a museum as much as you will also go to a bookstore. the...

the handling of this topic, think will be a pretty good one. And I love how you're setting the stage for sort of the friction that we know exists with museums because of the storytelling element of what they, the role they serve in our city. So should we dive into the present day? Yeah.

Reza (04:38)
Yeah, yeah,

Seyi. So let's talk about some of the stats. These museums, operate the intersection of culture, education, tourism, even diplomacy. And so let's look at some stats related to that. ⁓ Globally, there are over 95,000 museums, and this is a stat from UNESCO. ⁓ They contribute in the US 50 billion annually to the US economy.

and it supports 726,000 jobs. This is from the American Alliance of Museums in 2023 study. ⁓ Every dollar of revenue created at a museum generates $2.20 in other areas of the economy. So they're economic engines. In the UK, museums generated 1.5 billion in economic output and attracted over 70 million visitors annually with a British museum among the top destinations. ⁓ And the British museums ⁓ or all these,

visits is more than attendance at the premiership league plus all the rest of league football in the UK, which just astounded me because I thought, know, Premier League is the thing, but museums have a big part of cultural life in the UK. The Louvre in Paris was the most visited museum worldwide in 2023, reporting nearly 8.9 million visits, staggering.

Seyi Fabode (05:44)
Yeah. Yeah.

Reza (05:59)
But beyond economics, museums are deeply cultural. Research from the UK's Museum Association shows that 73 % of visitors say museums make them feel more connected to others and more informed about social issues. And the last stat over here is that support for museums is robust, regardless of political persuasion. 96 % of Americans would approve of lawmakers who acted to support museums.

consistently high for respondents who consider them either liberal, moderate or conservative. It's in the upper 90s for all three. ⁓ So it clearly shows that there's value from these museums. And I wanna touch on a few points about how museums actually transform cities and communities. And then I'll take some of your comments, Jay. So first, ⁓ it's a urban regeneration catalyst. They can serve as a powerful engine of urban transformation.

Seyi Fabode (06:45)
Yeah.

Reza (06:54)
Second, it can ⁓ revitalize a neighborhood. The Tate Modern has regenerated a whole neighborhood in London since it first opened in 2000 and demonstrates how these types of cultural institutions can really anchor broader community development. Third, they can become creative districts. They often spark the development of cultural quarters that attract artists, businesses, residents. And so they create a vibrant urban ecosystem around them. ⁓

Fourth, their social infrastructure. ⁓ We have talked often about social infrastructure, museums, libraries, they're really indispensable in the connective tissue that keeps healthy communities together. They serve as third places, we've talked often about third places, where people can gather and connect and people of all persuasions. ⁓ Fifth, it's civic engagements. They play a role in urban design, including really getting people to actively be curious.

⁓ about their city, their community, they increase urban literacy. And so it inspires people to take action. ⁓ Sixth, cultural identity and pride. This is very understandable. They help communities understand and celebrate their unique characteristics. ⁓ The seventh is local heritage. Local museums, and there are a lot of these, they can provide a sense of community and place by celebrating a collective heritage.

⁓ And so it's a great way to learn about the history of a particular area. So it's sort of those narrow museums. And the last one is global connection, because people travel and see museums. And so that while these museums might be rooted in a local community, they can connect citizens to a global cultural conversation, bringing exhibits from other places and experiencing humanity from other parts of the world ⁓ and sort of bringing us closer together. So let me pause over there, Shai. I tried to make a case for why museums matter and ⁓ would love your thoughts.

Seyi Fabode (08:46)
Yeah,

super, super important. I'll start with a quick story that ties into the point you made about for every $1, $2, 20 cents is generated. So our last trip to Chicago, we took the kids to the Field Museum and the Field Museum, fantastic museum in a museum campus in Chicago.

And there were a couple of exhibits. One was the Fashion of Africa. So we had to absolutely go there. The kids loved it, the vibrant colors and stuff. And on our way out, we tried to find something to buy that would tie our experience together, essentially. bought a few things. And we'd walked to the museum, but we were also tired by the time we were going back. We had to take a cab.

which meant we spent some more money. And so we had, from visiting the museum, generated money within the museum, but also outside of the museum, because we bought some church keys and we also bought stuff for the kids to eat and take as, for their memories of the place. And so that will be forever tied to the experience of...

Reza (09:53)
Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (10:10)
Chicago, they've been a few times, but this time they went to the museum they hadn't been. It represented something that is in their heritage because they saw the fashion of their ancestors in Africa and modern as well. I, I from, from.

Reza (10:23)
Yeah. Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (10:30)
That experience and what you're sharing here, that might have to be one of the things we now do when we travel with them because they had such a good time. It was both educational and fun at the same time. They saw the largest T-Rex ⁓ fully. It's in the Field Museum, the most complete fossils of a T-Rex they saw in there. ⁓ And it was just amazing.

Reza (10:47)
wow.

How cool.

Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (11:00)
It's one of the highlights of the trip for them in Chicago, even though they had a really great time. And I will confess, while I'm not as religiously visiting museums as you are, ⁓ in Khmer, Turkey, there was an outdoor museum. I think I shared some pictures with you.

Reza (11:20)
Yes, yes.

Seyi Fabode (11:22)
totally local small museum, but it was outdoor. It probably represented the most authentic thing about the place for us, because it was historic in that sense, but also tiny together. Exactly. Exactly. The Tate Museum, I really used to enjoy going to when I lived in London because it used to be a power station.

Reza (11:30)
Wow.

Yes, it wasn't touristy, right? It wasn't touristy. Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (11:50)
the bank side power station. again, even if I'm not as clear about the value, or I wasn't before I started reading your show notes and we started having this talk about the value of museums in cities, you've triggered a ton of, you know what? It is a critical piece of any city. So thanks for that, yeah.

Reza (11:50)
Yes, exactly.

Yeah. Yeah,

those are really good examples. It's so cool that kids enjoy the field museum. That's like such a memorable part of a trip. And I remember so many memorable things from the trips that I've been with my kids and the museums that we've been to. So there are all these positives, Shai, but there are trade-offs that come with museums and we should talk about that. And I'm gonna do the trade-offs. And it really starts with cultural appropriation, right?

Museums ⁓ face a lot of scrutiny over the origins of their collection, ⁓ with the communities reclaiming certain ethnic objects that were obtained from them. So that's one, ⁓ that that's a challenge. The second is accessibility and inclusion. Museums, they've been perceived as educational centers for the educated few. The disadvantages, ⁓ this disadvantages visitors who lack adequate background information about the artifacts in the museum. So it's almost like,

It's the elite building for the elite as opposed to thinking everyone and making it accessible to all. The third is funding pressures. One of the biggest limitations in these times is the lack of economical support due to cuts in public administration, public funding. So museums really caught between maintaining scholarly standards and generating revenue.

61 % of museums report that the number of individual donors to the museums have stayed the same or decreased in the last five years. So it's a struggle. The fourth is a city effect, the gentrification effect of museums. They can contribute to neighborhood gentrification. It can potentially displace long-term residents even as they improve the local economy. So there is that challenge. You can have like a really beautiful museum that revitalizes the neighborhood but can bump some other people out.

And then the last one, and I think this one is really apt for our time, you the political pressure that comes at museums. You know, the contemporary moment that we live in is a culture of meanness, unfortunately. It's not based on facts. It's not based on conversation. It's destructive to our democracy and our institutions. And it really creates challenges for museums trying to navigate this cultural and political sensitivities. I mean, the most recent thing that happened was the, you know, the Smithsonian Museum, the director of the National Portrait Gallery was, you know,

was summarily fired by the president ⁓ when he didn't have ⁓ the authority to, but then she resigned because she didn't think that she had support. But bringing politics into it really damages the positive effects of museums. So let me pause over there, Shai, and get your comments.

Seyi Fabode (15:00)
Yeah, it's such a, I think while it is becoming more apparent now, museums have always been political in that sense, in the sense that the stories that museums tell favor some narrative that the political class want to, or the elite, or the, history is

Reza (15:10)
interesting.

Yeah, history is written by the winners,

Seyi Fabode (15:27)
Exactly, exactly. so, exactly. And so

Reza (15:28)
right? Yes, yes, such a good point.

Seyi Fabode (15:31)
to that effect, there is that undertone and it is just a lot more heightened in our present ⁓ circumstances. ⁓ The cultural appropriation pieces is the one that gets me the most, honestly. ⁓ And... ⁓

Reza (15:36)
Yes.

Seyi Fabode (15:52)
another quick story. We were watching Black Panther, the first movie with the kids and there was the scene where, I hope I don't wreck this for anyone who hasn't watched it, but there was the scene where ⁓ one of the characters was in a museum pointing to artifacts and calling out the fact that these artifacts came from

from Africa and he was going to take it back. It was sort of the premise there. And it is kind of baffling that they say art imitates life. He wasn't saying anything that.

people haven't been griping about for years now. there's both the political and there's this great arrogance about the colonization that led to the obtaining of some of these artifacts and their willingness to return them to where they are.

Reza (16:43)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (17:06)
originally from. it's, it is that these thank you for sharing these. These are seriously ⁓ contentious challenges I dare say, but I'm sure our listeners recognize that we're calling these out not because we think museums are rubbish. We just spoke about our love for museums, but we have to be clear-eyed about assessing both sides.

Reza (17:30)
Yes.

Yeah, that's such a

good way that you put it, Seyi, because yeah, history is written by the winners. I'm gonna jump into a case study about the British Museum that we mentioned up top at the start of the episode. But before I do, the example that I wanted to share was when I was very young and I'd been to visit London, my mom, my brother and I had gone to the Tower of London, one of the places you go and visit.

And in it is the Kohinoor diamond, the largest diamond in the world. And my mom said, this is from India. And I was so baffled. I was like, why is this thing from India over here? What is it doing over here? And it's this challenge. But I had the opportunity to view it there ⁓ and all these other things in the Tower of London. And so it was an enriching experience. But...

Seyi Fabode (18:11)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Reza (18:26)
with a downside to it. And this is the story of the British Museum, right? This case study that I wanna bring up is that, you know, it's both a triumph of global cultural stewardship and a lightning rod for criticism. ⁓ So it has 6 million visitors annually, huge number. It's a cultural powerhouse. It has one of the best ⁓ loan programs for, you know, giving out their, ⁓ from their collection, have one of the largest collections in the world. ⁓

Seyi Fabode (18:30)
Yeah.

Yeah.

That's a lot.

Reza (18:53)
Economically, it supports local businesses, tourism, it acts as an educational resource for thousands of schools and scholars. And its success stems from several factors, know, global accessibility. It has really embraced the digital platform. This is one of the things that it does really well while maintaining its commitment to free admission, which is amazing. Free admission, anyone can come in. You know, it isn't $30 to get in. ⁓ So it ensures this access remains democratic.

Seyi Fabode (19:15)
Yeah.

Reza (19:20)
⁓ It has a really good exhibition strategy, bringing things from different places. So it has increased attendance and an uptick in sort of international visitors because they have these temporary exhibits that really showcase different parts of the world. There was one legion, Life in the Roman Army, then there was one about Michelangelo. So it really ⁓ finds a way to sort of showcase all these different cultures around the world.

And it's done really well with cultural diplomacy as well. It's a universal museum. It continues to navigate this complex discussion about cultural heritage, but it serves as a bridge between civilizations. But it also has these trade-offs that we mentioned, Shai. It holds more than eight million objects, many from former colonies, right? The British Empire, ⁓ many of these things. There've been campaigns for the return of the Parthenon marbles, the Benin bronzes, the Ethiopian treasures.

They've really intensified. And if you hear the story of how the Parthenon ⁓ marbles were sort of just taken off ⁓ the Parthenon and brought to the UK, it's a very interesting story. Dig into it, ⁓ listeners, and you'll be fascinated with how it was done. And so the critics argue that this museum that was built during the empire still operates with an imperialistic logic. So it really faces an ongoing challenge around repatriation of cultural artifacts.

and ensuring that its collections remain relevant to diverse global audiences, not just about the British Empire. And so it has to provide this access to universal knowledge while trying to do something about restorative justice and community ownership. And so its future lies in transparent dialogue about the cultural heritage and still maintaining its role as a world-class research and educational institution.

And I'm gonna touch on this in the future scenarios, but this museum is the first public museum facing the challenges that the future of museums staying relevant really brings.

Seyi Fabode (21:27)
Yeah, no really very ⁓ good framing through that case study and it's a foreshadowing of what many of these places will have to address. ⁓ And the one comment you made, and I distinctly remember this as well, the fact it's free is just fantastic because it answers that access question.

Reza (21:54)
Yes.

Seyi Fabode (21:55)
⁓ by keeping it free. again, the Benin bronzes, Ethiopian treasures, Parthenon marbles, that is the part that gets me the most. I love museums, but I really struggle with this. And I was listening to...

Tyler Cohen podcast the other day with, we were both listening without realizing we're listening about the same time. And there was a comment between him and the guest on the show. And it it spoke to this arrogance that I'm talking about. was, ⁓ the guest was Chris Arnard and this guy's walking the...

Reza (22:25)
Yes, world will stay the same day.

Yes.

Seyi Fabode (22:48)
essentially walking the world. ⁓ And they were talking about the, he is not a museum goer. He doesn't go to the museums in the cities that he visits. He prefers to walk amongst the people and experience the city. And Tyler Cohen was talking about how he likes to go to the museums. And Chris Anand was slightly aggressively.

Reza (22:50)
Yes.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (23:13)
pushing back, like what do

you see in those places? They're kind of slightly elitist and I talk about, he, Chris Anand, talks about the fact that the elite defined culture, which I disagree with, but this was his framing. So, and Tyler Cohen, I believe got a little bit defensive, but even in his defensive stance, he goes.

But if they return the artifacts to the places where they were gotten from, the people might not take good care of it. And it just smacked of so much colonial arrogance to me. And considering I just had a delightful experience at the Field Museum with my kids, with some African fashion from the continent being exhibited there,

Reza (24:05)
Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (24:08)
And I know those ones will be returned. They're moving across museums across the world. It was just so annoying to me. So I'm glad you pointed out that is something that absolutely needs to be addressed in light of just the reawakening of cultural pride in many of these places where the artifacts were taken from.

Reza (24:13)
Yeah.

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Yes, we listened to that episode and I thought that was a really interesting exchange between the two of them. And it really highlights this trade off, right? These museums give you this rich experience, but the way that they do it is, you need to be thoughtful about it. ⁓ So Seyi, I think what we should do now is ⁓ talk about the...

Seyi Fabode (24:54)
Yeah.

Reza (25:00)
two laws that apply over here from our 21 laws and then we can jump to kind of the future state and talk about where should these museums go?

Seyi Fabode (25:00)
lot.

Yeah.

Where should they go? Yeah, but I'll dive on into the laws and for our regular listeners, these laws, we've, we keep trying to test and weave the story of cities around. this, these two you've picked up particularly relevant. Um, number 16, which is that social infrastructure is as crucial as physical infrastructure investment in social infrastructure, museums, schools, libraries, community centers, third places, which is what

The museum is as important as physical infrastructure for sustainable urban development. And this comes from Klinenberg's research in 2018, him and a few others.

demonstrating the importance of social infrastructure in the book Palaces for the People. And the consequence of neglecting social infrastructure is just a reduced quality of life for the residents of a city, ⁓ decreased community resilience because museums do represent like a cultural cornerstone where the artifacts of a culture are kept and it increases social isolation. We had a delightful chat with ⁓ the lady who was

checking us in at the Field Museum because apparently she's been to Dallas twice and both times she came to visit family and had a great time but next time she might just go to Austin because she hears it's even more fun than Dallas. You know it was just this hilarious conversation of social connection which is what we all desire. We all want to belong and

Reza (26:40)
Yes. Yeah, it's connection.

Yeah. Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (26:48)
those conversations do increase our sense of belonging in a place. So this law is absolutely spot on. And then the second law is a law 13, cultural preservation strengthens community identity and sort of touched on it a little bit where preserving and celebrating cultural heritage and diversity strengthens the city's identity and the social cohesion within the city as well. And this comes from the research, similar research from UNESCO,

recognizing culture as a key driver of sustainable urban development and

report that came out that made this statement is culture and urban future. Our listeners should please check that out as well. It came out in 2016, but super relevant today in light of everything that's going on. And the consequence of ignoring the cultural preservation needs is that we lose our local identity when we let those local...

Reza (27:42)
Yeah.

Mm

Seyi Fabode (27:55)
museums go and even the national one, the big ones. But more importantly, I think the small ones. As I'm saying this, I'm thinking of the outdoor museum in Khmer and the small notes on the side of every artifact that made me feel like I knew the city more.

Reza (28:07)
Yeah.

Mm hmm.

Seyi Fabode (28:16)
The people who dwell in that city are probably very proud of their history and their culture. the social cohesion that comes from cultural preservation, will lose if we don't. And ⁓ tourists want to understand the city. And if we decrease or do not preserve the culture, we decrease the potential for tourism in those places.

Reza (28:20)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing those laws, ⁓ And it leads to this last section about the future. How can ⁓ cities benefit from these museums? And the future of museums lies not in choosing between preservation and innovation, but really in recognizing that their highest purpose is serving human flourishing. ⁓ And I think that's a really key point.

Seyi Fabode (29:10)
Yeah, that's such a good point.

Yeah.

Reza (29:12)
⁓

as museums serve society, ⁓ with research, collecting, preserving, interpreting, displaying tangible and intangible heritage, they're permanent public facilities open and accessible to all promoting diversity and sustainability. And so I wanna offer three models for museums of the future, sort of three possible ways forward. The first one is what I titled a hybrid institution ⁓ that really blends physical and digital experiences that

Seyi Fabode (29:26)
Yeah.

Reza (29:42)
is much more technologically oriented. So creating personalized journeys with AI powered systems to adapt to the individual visitors interests and learning styles, ⁓ globally connecting the collection and experts worldwide and really immersive storytelling using technology to make that history tangible and the art interactive. So that's one. The second is a community anchor. ⁓ So a place

for health and wellbeing, a center that offers programs specifically designed to support mental and physical health, really the social infrastructure aspect, a lifelong learning institution to provide formal and informal educational opportunities across all ages. ⁓ And then a civic forum, hosting community conversations about local and global challenges. I really like this one. This one sounds very appealing to me. This is probably the favorite one that I have.

⁓ And then the third one is the sustainable institution. ⁓ And so really bringing forward that environmental and social sustainability to be an example ⁓ to the rest of the city for how to do it. So carbon neutral operations, museums leading by example, environmental stewardship. We talked about the British library, not museum, but a library ⁓ in that future smarter buildings of the case study.

Seyi Fabode (31:03)
Yeah.

Reza (31:07)
social justice champions, ⁓ institutions that actively work to address historical inequities and promote inclusion, and then economic resilience, like diversified funding models that ensure long-term stability. And so what I would say with these three examples, at the end of this is we were trying to answer the question of do museums make cities better? And my answer is that museums are not merely nice to have. They're not nice to have.

Seyi Fabode (31:30)
Yeah.

Reza (31:36)
amenities, they're really essential infrastructure for healthy, communities. And this is really the economic and ecological things that we talk about. I believe that museums provide that ecological aspect of the cultural, social, and educational foundation to make a place worth living in. So we have a rapidly changing world, and these museums offer something irreplaceable, a space for helping us reflect, wonder, learn, connect, you know, the connection that you had with that

Seyi Fabode (31:45)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Reza (32:06)
at the museum, the Field Museum there as an example. They remind us of our shared humanity while helping us navigate to a better future. And so the investment in museums, financial, intellectual, and emotional is really an investment in our communities and the societies we want to build.

Seyi Fabode (32:08)
Yeah.

Yeah, no, soup. I totally agree with you. I, ⁓ again, as we've gone through the episode, I, at almost every point you've said something, I've tied an experience in a certain city to a museum that I, myself, with the kids or my wife, that we, I can, and,

Those memories add to the fabric of that city for me. So they are cultural. We're traveling a bit over the next few weeks here. And ⁓ you just gave me a mental reminder to make sure I add the British Museum to our itinerary for the trip. So thank you so much for diving into the museum discussion today, Raza.

Reza (33:01)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, and you know, the call to action is ⁓ just like you're inspired to go to the British Museum and visit museums on your trips. You know, I hope this episode inspires our listeners to visit the museum in your city or in the city that you're visiting. You know, go to the museum ⁓ and understand its place in the city, in your community, in the community that that museum is placed in and, ⁓ you know, support the institution ⁓ and experience the cultural richness and

connectivity that comes from it.

Seyi Fabode (33:53)
Yeah, such a good call to action that again, we tried to make these calls to action ⁓ doable. This one is both doable and fun at the same time. So I think we'll get a lot of good, good responses to this one. Yeah.

Reza (34:05)
Yeah. ⁓

Yeah,

yeah, talking about responses, Seyi, let's jump into a mailbag segment of the episode. I have a great mailbag from my sister-in-law, Nasneen. And so Nas, you know, wrote in response to the future of airport episodes. I'm going to read her email. It's hilarious. It's absolutely hilarious. ⁓ And she's writing about a trip that she was on. She said, loved your airport podcast, which kept me company.

Seyi Fabode (34:17)
Yeah, please.

Yeah.

Yes. ⁓

Reza (34:39)
during an interminably long work trip a couple of days ago. It was an especially serendipitous episode as just a few days before I flew into a one-horse town called Putnagar that she flew on what she says, a creaky ATR that sounded like it was powered by a hairdryer. I think ATR is one of those smaller planes. I love that. Powered by a hairdryer.

Seyi Fabode (35:05)
Yep. Yep.

Reza (35:08)
That really brings a great picture to mind. She

said, the airport was the tiniest I've seen. No belt, one common loo. And you had to physically go and collect your own luggage from the tangle of bags that were dumped halfway between the tarmac and the squalid little arrival hall, quote unquote. No trolleys, no belt, no fan, no counter. I'd been to this airport just three weeks ago and was betwixt a state of horror and bemusement. But your podcast got me thinking. And so this is what, you know, she...

Seyi Fabode (35:33)
Yeah.

Reza (35:36)
thought about it was like the impression was certainly not good. But there was a strange sort of charm to its bare bones simplicity. It didn't have the traditional hallmarks of being a progressive airport as Seyi had pointed out, but in retrospect, it had something else. And I'm still grappling if it was charming or if it was aggressive. Is there any bridge between development, future and protecting these small towns that are still so wonderfully rooted in a simpler, slower, dare I say richer life?

Seyi Fabode (36:04)
man, that is such a mill bag. It's amazing. I just say Reza, like you, she's a bit of a writer and a poet too, like vividly described her experience at the airport. And that final point is such a good one.

Reza (36:06)
Hahaha

Yes, she is.

Seyi Fabode (36:23)
We, we, even as we speak to progress and the future state for many of the, on the episodes that we do, we do want the cities and the towns to maintain sort of what makes them places that we as individuals in the cities want to belong to. So maybe the airport wasn't all bad. Maybe just that, that.

she won't forget it, you know, and it's local and it serves. So I don't know. It's a really good question that we should probably at some point bring some philosopher expert to come help us talk about future good versus history bad. Is that the dichotomy we're facing?

Reza (37:07)
Yeah.

Yeah,

I think also, it brings up a really good point about oftentimes when we build infrastructure or we build cities, we currently think about efficiency, right? We forget the human touch and we forget ⁓ how should we slow down to pause and pay attention to what's going on.

Seyi Fabode (37:24)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Reza (37:37)
⁓ And

I think there's a really good example of that at the Austin Airport that you just encountered. We were talking right before this episode. So maybe you should talk about that one,

Seyi Fabode (37:43)
Yes,

yes. So, a trip a few days ago, I flew out of Terminal 14 in the Austin airport and for anyone who's flown out of Austin airport, you know that there is no...

gate, sorry, gate 14, there is no gate 13 because gate 13 is the gate with the infinite symbol. So we call it the gate to nowhere, I guess. And it is this permanent installation by Brooklyn-based artist, Jeanette Zweig and...

Reza (38:14)
Yes.

Seyi Fabode (38:23)
It is the most adorable thing ever. actually had, the flight was an early one and some people who I believe had never, this was their first time in Austin, they were flying out to Chicago and they were there taking pictures as we were checking in to get on the plane. They noticed it and they really didn't care what seat they got on the plane at that point. They were taking pictures and the...

One of the boards in the installation has ⁓ different random airlines like the Westpool airline going to Slumberland, the Jane Eyre going to Pemberley, ⁓ the Quantum airline going to Orionon, and... ⁓

incorporate real airline going to San Junipero amongst justice. Anyone who flies out of Austin airport, try and get a few minutes at gate what should be gate 13, but is gate infinite or nowhere, which is a fantastic, unique, because no other airport has this installation. And it's sort of a combination of art and

Reza (39:35)
Yeah. Yeah.

Seyi Fabode (39:42)
this very whimsical approach to Austin that we all know of. Yes, super weird. Super weird.

Reza (39:46)
Yeah, weird. know, Austin weird. We are

playing true to the culture of Austin. so it keeps this human touch to what is a very busy and growing airport.

Seyi Fabode (39:53)
Exactly.

Exactly, exactly. The Gate of Inter-Imaginary Destinations, it's called. And it's so Austin.

Reza (40:09)
Yeah. Yeah.

This is a great example. I love this mailbag. Thank you, Nas, for sharing it. And with that, we come to the close of this episode. Really enjoyed talking about museums because it's one of my favorite places. And as we always tell our listeners, please share this with...

Seyi Fabode (40:16)
Thank you. Very good. Yeah.

Reza (40:38)
others ⁓ that you would think you would enjoy it. And then like and subscribe. ⁓ know, our YouTube algorithm Overlord really does pay attention to your likes and subscribes and we're doing really well on YouTube. So, you know, keep folks that are watching on there, keep doing it. And then, ⁓ you know, it's available on every podcast platform. So rating and reviewing over there really helps us too. But yeah, I can't wait for our next episode, Shai. This was a lot of fun to do.

Seyi Fabode (41:07)
This has been so much fun Reza. Thank you for diving into a passion topic for you, but also handling it with so much clarity so that our listeners get a balanced view of whether museums help or make cities better. And I think the conclusion we'll come to is that yes, it does. Until next time, thanks for listening. Bye.

Reza (41:16)
Thank you, Seyi

Yeah, it does.

Thank you, bye.